30fps fat shaming "The Know" does not approve

Kassen

Kassen

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Sep 11, 2013
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I don't see this list as a big deal. It's informative to those who care. It helps us to make an informed decision on our purchases. And if the list is really hurting sales that badly, then the developers should care about adding the simple option for 60fps. It's how the consumer world works.

 
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Here is the deal. On PC keep the framerate unlocked. PC has the brute hardware to drive framerates higher. That is the truth. You can have something like what the Witcher 3 did: have locked 30 or 60 or unlimited. The point is don't release a game that is locked at ONLY 30 fps and immediately gimp those with the PC hardware who can actually run the game at over 60 fps. Give everybody an option. On console locking framerates makes sense because they are closed systems and can't be upgraded internally with more powerful hardware. On PC locking framerates to some sub 60 framerates is like driving on the Autobahn with a Ferrari and them restricting everybody to only 30mph. It will only anger people with faster cars.
 
I'm that guy on the left. Show me 10 games, 5 @ 30fps and 5 @ 60fps and I couldn't tell you which was which. Ignorant oblivion!

Every wonder why game publishers don't tout 60fps on the back of the box as a game feature? Because the general gaming public couldn't care less. This is a Master Race issue brought down upon console gamers that was never an issue until last gen. I never heard these discussions prior to then.
 
Oblong said:
I'm that guy on the left. Show me 10 games, 5 @ 30fps and 5 @ 60fps and I couldn't tell you which was which. Ignorant oblivion!

Every wonder why game publishers don't tout 60fps on the back of the box as a game feature? Because the general gaming public couldn't care less. This is a Master Race issue brought down upon console gamers that was never an issue until last gen. I never heard these discussions prior to then.
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Have you every tried it though? I went from playing Let it Die (60) straight to the OG Gears of War (30) and the difference was jarring. Maybe if you don't go straight between games it's a little harder but I'm guessing back to back you would tell.
 
Oblong said:
I'm that guy on the left. Show me 10 games, 5 @ 30fps and 5 @ 60fps and I couldn't tell you which was which. Ignorant oblivion!

Every wonder why game publishers don't tout 60fps on the back of the box as a game feature? Because the general gaming public couldn't care less. This is a Master Race issue brought down upon console gamers that was never an issue until last gen. I never heard these discussions prior to then.
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I'm kinda sorta with you. It really depends on the game for me to be quite honest. A turn based strategy game I'm really not going to notice 60fps vs 30. An First person shooter , I might notice it. The only time I really can definitively see it are in playing fast action packed games immediately after each other.
 
Oblong said:
I'm that guy on the left. Show me 10 games, 5 @ 30fps and 5 @ 60fps and I couldn't tell you which was which. Ignorant oblivion!

Every wonder why game publishers don't tout 60fps on the back of the box as a game feature? Because the general gaming public couldn't care less. This is a Master Race issue brought down upon console gamers that was never an issue until last gen. I never heard these discussions prior to then.
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I was complaining about it back when Halo 2 came out, lol. First game that got me really bitching about framerate was Zelda Ocarina of Time. I guess before that, the majority of games I was playing were generally 60fps (NES, SNES, Genesis, 32x etc etc) , full stop; give or take the rare instances of slowdown in Street Fighter games and such.

If you can't tell the difference, good for you I guess, but I'm not sure why you would take issue with people that can.
 
pravus said:
I was complaining about it back when Halo 2 came out, lol. First game that got me really b****ing about framerate was Zelda Ocarina of Time. I guess before that, the majority of games I was playing were generally 60fps (NES, SNES, Genesis, 32x etc etc) , full stop; give or take the rare instances of slowdown in Street Fighter games and such.

If you can't tell the difference, good for you I guess, but I'm not sure why you would take issue with people that can.
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I don't take issue with people that can tell the difference. This thread is about "Fat shaming 30fps games" and am standing up for 30 fps games because many of us don't see it as an issue. To look down upon those games is to also look down on those who enjoy them.

I agree with the point made in the video that it would be far better for those who care about 60fps games to make their website noting those games for the benefit of those who care.
 
Oblong said:
I don't take issue with people that can tell the difference. This thread is about "Fat shaming 30fps games" and am standing up for 30 fps games because many of us don't see it as an issue. To look down upon those games is to also look down on those who enjoy them.
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I can't totally agree with that.

If I'm on console, I prefer 60fps, but I don't think I've ever not purchased a game specifically because it's 30fps.

This changes on PC IMO and it's not because I'm some bipolar snob. It's because the entire point of a PC release is that you are releasing it to a ton of different hardware variations that run the gamut from ancient, low budget, budget, medial, etc etc all the way up to "I can't stuff enough GPU's in this case!!!!". Therefore the most basic of all tenants when it comes to a PC build is to have it customizable and even that can vary, but most very basic things you need to have before I'm going to tell you it's busted is:

-customizable frame-rate: Monitors come in all shapes, sizes and speeds. If a developer is releasing on PC, they know this... worse comes to worst... leave an unlocked framerate and nobody will care.
-customizable resolution: we have people playing on 4:3 CRT's up to 4k/144hz or 8k 60hz etc etc.. ultra-wide set-ups, multi-monitor set-ups etc etc.. now multi-monitor set-ups aside, being able to support unlocked resolution is a basic thing.
-a good reason: if you can't provide those things, tell me why not. i.e; one of my favorite games of last year launched locked to 30fps on PC (Hyperlight Drifter)...but the developer said ahead of time exactly why, it was because he started animation/gameplay systems tied to 30hz from the start.. but he was honest and clear with his customers.... eventually released a 60fps patch later because he's a hero, but if there is a good reason for a framerate lock/resolution lock, people are more open to it. I know there are some games that are released, locked to specific framerates to achieve a desired artistic look... that's a good reason.

Those are the basics and anyone releasing a game on PC should build appropriately, but as it's an open platform developers tend to be all over the board with barebones settings up to the glossary index settings found in games like Doom or Gears of War 4. The more customizable the better.

On PC the general rule of thumb is that games should only be limited by your hardware; not by a mistake, rushed port, oversight or just laziness. None of that has anything to do with people that are okay with playing 30fps games though IMO. I wouldn't take it as a slight.

The reason why people are more adamant about this on the PC side is because lazy developers have been known to drop off quick rush job ports missing things like; controller support, m/kb support, locked framerates, locked resolutions, locked letter box bars, non-customizable controls, non-specific button prompts, games with issues specific to certain hardware, etc etc... if people had half of these issues on console all hell would break loose. Therefore when you see stuff like this being highlighted on PC, it's because there is no standard for releases and gamers are left to either demand it themselves or sit there with a bunch of busted games.

The Framerate Police list in particular has helped yours truly when I was in a jam; think of it as a buyers beware guide and I think that is an excellent thing.

I agree with the point made in the video that it would be far better for those who care about 60fps games to make their website noting those games for the benefit of those who care.
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That's just weird though. This isn't a console where it's more likely to be 30/60fps target. On PC, even a 60fps lock can be a problem (coming from a guy using a 75hz laptop screen as I'm typin this, with a 144hz monitor upstairs).

The best possible scenario is that there is no lock whatsoever and that should be the rule. A 30fps or even 60fps lock should always be the exception in this case. Just my personal opinion, but unless a game calls for it as an artistic choice (these are rare), there is literally no reason to have a game locked to a specific framerate without an option to change it.

These guys in the video talking about games being downgraded to reach 60fps... they are talking sideways out of their ass. On a platform with no lid and ancient toaster technology as the baseline, the statement makes no sense at all.
 
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I will not buy a PC game if it has a 30fps lock. However, on console a 30fps framerate would prevent me from buying a game. Reason being is that 30fps on PC is almost unplayable with kb/m. However on console with a controller its more acceptable seeing as a controller is not as precise as a mouse.


Framerate to me is all about control responsiveness. Which is why i have a 180hz monitor and yes i can tell the difference between 60fps and 180fps as it is all in the controls.
 
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eVo7 said:
I will not buy a PC game if it has a 30fps lock. However, on console a 30fps framerate would prevent me from buying a game. Reason being is that 30fps on PC is almost unplayable with kb/m. However on console with a controller its more acceptable seeing as a controller is not as precise as a mouse...
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Soooooo your saying you'll never buy a game that's 30fps then... ;)
 
Agreed. On PC, there is no reason to lock frames at 30fps. Too much variation in hardware. The only time it would be OK, is if they optimized a game to fully exploit the hardware config to get the most out of those 30 frames.

As for 60 and 30. It depends on the game. I went from Halo Reach (30) straight to Halo 5 (60) without a hitch. Of course not all games are equal, and each of those games are designed specifically for those framerates.
 
Oblong said:
I'm that guy on the left. Show me 10 games, 5 @ 30fps and 5 @ 60fps and I couldn't tell you which was which. Ignorant oblivion!
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It's not just about what you see....it's what you feel. For example, you can watch a movie at sub 30 fps, but it doesn't matter. However, you're not controlling the movie. There's a one to one ratio response when using a mouse. In fast games, it's what you see on screen COUPLED with your hand to mouse actions that make a game feel less responsive. It even feels that with a controller, but not as much.


Now, with the above that you said....show you 10 games, as in 10 different games? How about show you 30 vs 60 in the same game?
 
Qbert said:
It's not just about what you see....it's what you feel. For example, you can watch a movie at sub 30 fps, but it doesn't matter. However, you're not controlling the movie. There's a one to one ratio response when using a mouse. In fast games, it's what you see on screen COUPLED with your hand to mouse actions that make a game feel less responsive. It even feels that with a controller, but not as much.


Now, with the above that you said....show you 10 games, as in 10 different games? How about show you 30 vs 60 in the same game?
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From all the comments it seems to me this is something more of an issue for PC gamers and their mice rather than console gamers like myself. Those who play both platforms have also developed and eye for it on consoles.

I was referring to playing 10 different games and not being able to guess which was 30fps vs. 60fps. Although I haven't field tested, I am guessing if it was the same game running at different fps that I should be able to discern the difference. Is there a console game with FPS settings that I could test this theory on?
 
CFogle21 said:
Play Gears 4 Horde mode(30fps) on the Xbox one, then hop into a versus match (60fps). It's like night and day.
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OK, I will give that a try. I am still going through the single player campaign and haven't hit MP yet.
 
Oblong said:
From all the comments it seems to me this is something more of an issue for PC gamers and their mice rather than console gamers like myself. Those who play both platforms have also developed and eye for it on consoles.

I was referring to playing 10 different games and not being able to guess which was 30fps vs. 60fps. Although I haven't field tested, I am guessing if it was the same game running at different fps that I should be able to discern the difference. Is there a console game with FPS settings that I could test this theory on?
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Play bf3 on last gen console, then try on current gen.
 
pravus said:
I was complaining about it back when Halo 2 came out, lol. First game that got me really b****ing about framerate was Zelda Ocarina of Time. I guess before that, the majority of games I was playing were generally 60fps (NES, SNES, Genesis, 32x etc etc) , full stop; give or take the rare instances of slowdown in Street Fighter games and such.

If you can't tell the difference, good for you I guess, but I'm not sure why you would take issue with people that can.
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My first game that struggled was Tetris Attack on the SNES, where the frame rate would hit single digits if two players were chaining combos against each other lol.
 
If you ever want to prove why 60fps is better for shooters at least, just give someone a whirl of Rainbow Six Siege's multiplayer on console for a bit. Then toss them into terrorist hunt. My console friends don't know what frames per second is and couldn't tell you what the difference between 30fps and 60fps is in technical terms and they all instantly say it's laggy and horrible.
 
Oblong said:
From all the comments it seems to me this is something more of an issue for PC gamers and their mice rather than console gamers like myself. Those who play both platforms have also developed and eye for it on consoles.

I was referring to playing 10 different games and not being able to guess which was 30fps vs. 60fps. Although I haven't field tested, I am guessing if it was the same game running at different fps that I should be able to discern the difference. Is there a console game with FPS settings that I could test this theory on?
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Rise of the Tomb Raider for the PS4 has 30 FPS locked 4k, 30 FPS with bells and whistles (non-4K), unlocked framerate (up to 60 FPS).

I'm one of the ones that can tell the difference between 30 and 60 FPS immediately but that doesn't stop me from buying 30 FPS games. Just takes a bit to get used to again after playing a back to back of 60 FPS game to a 30 FPS game.
 
Oblong said:
I don't take issue with people that can tell the difference. This thread is about "Fat shaming 30fps games" and am standing up for 30 fps games because many of us don't see it as an issue. To look down upon those games is to also look down on those who enjoy them.

I agree with the point made in the video that it would be far better for those who care about 60fps games to make their website noting those games for the benefit of those who care.
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This isn't about 30fps vs 60fps though, and that's where I think everyone is getting a little bit lost here. Personally 60fps is a vast difference to me, but that doesn't make 30fps unplayable.

The point about this Steam group is that primarily these games, with a few exceptions, have little reason to be locked at 30fps on PC. Some of these games are are running at 30fps on systems literally 10x more powerful than the consoles that need to run at 30fps. In some cases it is as simple as a developer neglecting to include options built into the engine, but in others they are are unable to increase performance by 2x when provided as much as 11x or more overall power.

I don't think it's unfair for a group to say that what they want out of a game, despite what a developer wants. We already have an issue where people find it very difficult to vote with their wallets. Game developers and publishers(tends to be more on the publisher side, developers tend to just be over excited) pull shady and anti-consumer stuff all the time designed to either mislead the consumer or simply put them in a difficult scenario where they are motivated to make a purchase despite serious reservations.

Even if this group did take off it would simply tell the developers where to prioritize their resources. People are buying these games, they have a right to say what they want in the game, and not just use this as an objective resource.
 
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