Halo 5

[TrueBlueHero]

With the Halo 5 Beta being almost a full year ahead of the game’s launch there’s an actual chance to help 343 craft the best experience possible. It’s a Beta in the truest sense not some kind of glorified demo.

So far I’ve read very mixed reactions to the footage but what’s even more important is that most of the feedback hasn’t been constructive so far. There’s a lot of “F*** 343, you killed Halo! Meh to everything!” or “Halo fans move with the times, Halo MUST be modernized!”
Both approaches do not help as both sides have their legitimate points. Or in other words: Every truth has two sides. Yet, unfortunately there’s little willingness to approach one another so far.

This thread is a first step to initiate a more level-headed and fruitful discussion in order to compile helpful feedback for 343. There won’t be THE solution for everything but probably we can develop different scenarios that could work.

I would like to set up following guidelines for this thread:

• Keep it factual: Strong emotions are understandable but this is not the right place to express your anger/frustration/disappointment
• Be respectful: both 343 and other forum users deserve your respect, even if their actions are against your beliefs
• Be as open-minded as possible: Trench warfare isn’t helpful, just keep in mind that this isn’t a game solely developed for you (there are both long-term Halo-Fans and people that might be in the future but are relatively new to the series)
• Use arguments: “Sprint doesn’t belong to Halo.” is an assertion NOT an argument. Give reasons why you feel/think this way.
• Try to be constructive: The best feedback is feedback that offers alternative scenarios or solutions. Criticizing is easy, being constructive is not.

With this in mind: Let’s get the discussion started

 

[TrueBlueHero]

I’ve got an alternative view on the mobility options especially sprint. So far I’ve read a lot of well thought out arguments why sprint doesn’t add to the gameplay or why it doesn’t belong to Halo:
1.) While sprinting you can’t shoot which some people claim keeps players away from what really matters – the gunfights
2.) Another argument is that sprinting takes away the punishment of defeat (e.g. loss of ground) as players can get back to where they died too quickly
3.) Others say that sprint is a cheap ‘get out of trouble’ option
4.) In games that are designed around sprint maps are way more stretched and thus loose the “compact feel”

On the other side there are people that really welcome sprint, yet couldn’t really explain what it is they like. Before digging into that I would like to address the arguments above:
1.) Sprinting in the current form is indeed a (soft) barrier for shooting, as there is no possibility to shoot while running. There’s a small delay until you can shoot which is somewhat intentional as sprinting is designed to get the player from point A to B as quick as possible not as a mean to speed up movement in actual gunfights. There’s a tradeoff for quick traversal and I think the argument is: Why do we need quick traversal at all?
I’ll come back to that later.
2.) This is an actual problem in games where sprint is not an ability that everyone can use all the time (read: Halo Reach). However if a game is designed around sprint I don’t really see the problem as maps are dimensioned with that in mind.
3.) An excellent point. While this isn’t in any way or form unfair as long as all players have this ability it’s frustrating from a psychological point of view. You the aggressor are so close to get that kill just that your prey gets away in the last second (because of sprint).
Because a fast moving target is harder to kill per se sprinting really fits games with fast kill times. That’s probably also the reason why some feel it doesn’t belong in Halo as Halo traditionally had long kill times. 343 already addressed that in some way by not allowing the shield to recharge while sprinting and a four sec delay after that. While there’s a possibility that more cat and mouse games might arise the previous advantage of fleeing is drastically reduced. On the positive side ‘saw you first thus killed you’ scenarios are reduced and the previous prey gets a small but vital chance to fight back. All in all this argument isn’t about ‘being cheap’ or ‘unskillful gameplay’ for me – the real question will be to what degree it affects the flow of the game.
4.) There’s something to think about for sure. The question is: Does such a designed map feel worse per se or is it just different?


But now let’s jump to the other side of the argument. Why do people like expanded mobility options, why do some people feel that games without sprint feel dated?

Well because traversal per se does have a value of it’s own.
Halo is not just about gunfights and confrontations alone. Good games have an ebb and flow and even classic games in the series had substantial periods of time where you weren’t engaged in a firefight. At their best these moments gave the player a little breathing-room and made the next confrontations even more meaningful – at their worst they were just boring and/or punishing fillers because psychologically you craved for being at the front, in the middle of the action.
Some clever developers (think Titanfall/Respawn) realized that traversal could be it’s own joy not just a link to the next fight. That’s why players loved driving a Warthog. That’s why I enjoyed Titantfall’s parkour system more than any other part of the game.
While Halo perfected gunplay the series didn’t evolve in terms of mobility (on foot). In the meantime the industry didn’t sleep. From Titanfall, Destiny to Call of Duty: Traversal isn’t the ugly stepchild anymore. Quite the opposite is true, it’s the new trend in FPS. And understandably so. In terms of gunplay we’ve seen almost everything. From the golden Halo and Call of Duty formulas and everything in between, there’s no need to reinvent the wheel and no need to reprint the same ideas a thousand times.

I agree that change just for change’s sake is bad. However traversal – at least in my book – is something that IS worthwhile. Thus it’s not either about betraying one’s formula or copying the industry. No particular studio was at the forefront of this movement this time. A lot of studios contributed beginning with Bungie themselves (vehicles) but including almost every major developer with my personal highlight being Respawn with Titanfall.
The point is: People just have an intrinsic fascination for movement. That’s why people love Parkour, all kinds of sports, that’s why we enjoyed Jump & Runs in videogames.
You see an open space. What’s your first urge? To run.
You see obstacles. What’s your first urge? To climb, to jump.
The player character is an extension of your own person.
After games gave you the possibility to do all that it’s hard to go back.
That’s what even hardcore Halo fans experience with the MCC right now. I’ve been a Halo fanboy since day one. Yet even I struggled at first when sprinting wasn’t an option. I didn’t think about it, my brain just told me and for a whole game I had the feeling that I was walking in quick sand.
I adjusted faster probably because Halo was already in my DNA. But it’s not about me alone. I can perfectly understand that players not so familiar with the series might be turned off without giving the game an actual chance. And even I still miss sprinting from time to time especially in the campaign.

So all (legitimate) concerns aside, these are my reasons why expanded mobility options are worthwhile:
A) Running, jumping, climbing are in our blood – it feels punishing to be limited in that regard even in videogames and it’s plain fun to overcome your own physical limits even if it’s not your own body performing these actions
B) With practically all major games adding advanced mobility the above is even more significant. It’s not about betraying one’s own history it’s a rational adaption (both gameplay-wise and economically) whether old-time fans like that or not. Halo is neither a pure fan-service nor a charity.
C) Phases without firefights had their function in previous games but there were also a lot of times these weren’t actually enjoyable at all – thus enhancing traversal can add to the gameplay and overall fun you have with a game
D) Skillful traversal can be very rewarding: Making that grab/jump, sliding to cover or just getting from A to B as quick as possible really gives you the feeling that you achieved something.
E) 343 wants you to feel like a badass. A supersoldier doesn’t just jog.
F) Quick moving targets are actually harder to hit, this is making aiming more challenging thus adding to the skill gap. As every player does have the same abilities it’s a perfectly fair system.
G) Escaping targets might be frustrating but on the other side this also reduces the effect of “seen you first” i.e. it gives players a chance to fight back
H) There are situations where added speed is advantageous and there is no downside at all. Think bigger maps (BTB), think campaign. One might argue that different settings might be suitable for different modes yet there were good reasons to not do that in the past.

 

[Kerosene31]

G) Escaping targets might be frustrating but on the other side this also reduces the effect of “seen you first” i.e. it gives players a chance to fight back

That's a huge part of it right there. They need to balance things to make it fast enough to be fun, but not so fast as to just mimic other games. There were some Halo MP games where I wouldn't even bother shooting at a target at range (unless you had a one hit weapon of course), as the enemy would just duck behind cover. Every fight turned into a close 1 on 1 duel. How to do that is easier said than done, but what I have seen certainly looks ok.

The problem with Halo MP is you have too many opinions on the game to get any kind of consensus. 343 tries to make everyone happy and ends up making nobody happy.

 

[team56th]

I'm all for changing, and the Halo 2 elitists are exactly the type I don't like. I like what I'm seeing about Halo 5 so far, but maybe 343 needs to balance ground stomp and sprinting more aggressively. Right now there seems to be nothing that will stop a guy sprinting with an energy sword. That and ground stomp looks way too accurate and powerful.

 

[team56th]

Also, I share the concern that players should feel powerful when they control Spartans. With previous games and Master Chief, he does not differ in any way from the grunts fighting alongside him. A guy who drops down from space to Earth only with his suit dies after a few gun shots? It's something that has bugged me with previous Halo games and I'm reminded of that again with MCC. While making that power felt in MP games would be controversial, I am very interested in how this design direction unfolds in SP.

 

[Nervusbreakdown]

People are going to cry no matter what. I saw enough to say that the game is going to be very good. Also I think Halo 4 multiplayer is good and also they have the top players on Halo playing this in beta providing feed back to the developers.

Here is that video people didn't really looked at.

 

[Nervusbreakdown]

I'm all for changing, and the Halo 2 elitists are exactly the type I don't like. I like what I'm seeing about Halo 5 so far, but maybe 343 needs to balance ground stomp and sprinting more aggressively. Right now there seems to be nothing that will stop a guy sprinting with an energy sword. That and ground stomp looks way too accurate and powerful.

But there is a weakness to using sprint now

 

[Nervusbreakdown]

That's a huge part of it right there. They need to balance things to make it fast enough to be fun, but not so fast as to just mimic other games. There were some Halo MP games where I wouldn't even bother shooting at a target at range (unless you had a one hit weapon of course), as the enemy would just duck behind cover. Every fight turned into a close 1 on 1 duel. How to do that is easier said than done, but what I have seen certainly looks ok.

The problem with Halo MP is you have too many opinions on the game to get any kind of consensus. 343 tries to make everyone happy and ends up making nobody happy.

They do try to do so, I just think no matter what happen people will cry regardless. This Halo version looks BEAST!

 

[de3d1]

I'm all for changing, and the Halo 2 elitists are exactly the type I don't like. I like what I'm seeing about Halo 5 so far, but maybe 343 needs to balance ground stomp and sprinting more aggressively. Right now there seems to be nothing that will stop a guy sprinting with an energy sword. That and ground stomp looks way too accurate and powerful.

the ground stomp, if you look closely, right after he lands there looks to be a long delay before you can resume. I'm thinking if you miss with it, you are completely vulnerable afterwards. idk though, just a guess.

 

[de3d1]

People are going to cry no matter what. I saw enough to say that the game is going to be very good. Also I think Halo 4 multiplayer is good and also they have the top players on Halo playing this in beta providing feed back to the developers.

Here is that video people didn't really looked at.

that actually looks really visceral. just by that vid I think 343i has a fun game on their hands already.

 

[Tommygun.]

I wonder what happens if two people stomp the same area at the same time. (though its more of a downwards falcon punch since they dont use their feet as the strike)

I think that's how other dimensions are formed.

 

[Z A C K]

I wonder what happens if two people stomp the same area at the same time. (though its more of a downwards falcon punch since they dont use their feet as the strike)

I think that's how other dimensions are formed.

 

[Obscene Jester]

I'm liking everything I am seeing at this early stage so don't yet have much criticism constructive or otherwise. I do have a hope however that we get some really good huge outdoor maps this time around as I haven't been thrilled with the offerings over the past few iterations.

 

[Dno69]

At times the game reminds of both a new Unreal Tornament and Metal Gear. lol

It looks really fun. The gameplay additions look cool.

 

[Intellivision]

Game looks fantastic especially at these new YT 60 fps feeds! Love ADS as I prefer looking down a scope.

 

[GamingKaiju]

Great post TrueBlueHero

One thing I really like about TF was the map traversal, the wall running made for some very fun and interesting gameplay. Now I didn't like what 343i did with H:4 in fact I think they messed it up so bad that it hasn't got a saving grace not 1 and this sorta left a sour taste. So with H:5 I wasn't holding my breath especially since I saw rumors of ADS and sprinting, I liked H:Reach with the addition of amour abilities, they mixed up the gameplay even more so when used correctly (smashing a ghost up with armor lock was funny). So after looking at the beta reveal I wasn't sure if I liked it or didn't.

After reading EG's preview I'm under the impression that there are no loadouts and you can only have 1 AA active at a given time, I think this is the right way to go about it and since someone can evade a dangerous situation faster but whilst sprinting the shield wont recharge, so if your quick enough you can scope them out before the shield recharges that balances out the sprint system. There is no penalty for hip firing or using the smart scope, but I guess when going ADS your accuracy is higher on further targets. The ground pound also has it's draw backs whilst it's charging up (in the air) you are vulnerable. So my take is that 343 have really thought out drawbacks to having these abilities so they don't overtake the game like perks do in CoD.

If I pick up an X1 I will try out the beta. I think 343i knew they messed up with H:4 and have tried to make a variety of changes in H:5 by bringing pack map control and super weapon pick ups instead of having loadouts. They got rid off the unlock progression (thank god) so everything is open to everyone regardless of your rank. No more weapon drops after a time has expired. These are positive changes IMO and because of it I'm willing to give 343i the benefit of the doubt. I just hope that they bring back some massive BTB maps and have more positive changes with vehicles.

Just one more thing I hope they bring back the original announcer that guy was boss!

 

[aliengoat]

I would like to have a first person view and different views in a vehicle for Halo 5 been wishing for that since H3.

 

[Nervusbreakdown]

Halo 4 was beast, but having this where everybody have the same abilities is better because now its on the players to be good. No more excuse on anything.

 

[Frozpot]

Great post TrueBlueHero

One thing I really like about TF was the map traversal, the wall running made for some very fun and interesting gameplay. Now I didn't like what 343i did with H:4 in fact I think they messed it up so bad that it hasn't got a saving grace not 1 and this sorta left a sour taste. So with H:5 I wasn't holding my breath especially since I saw rumors of ADS and sprinting, I liked H:Reach with the addition of amour abilities, they mixed up the gameplay even more so when used correctly (smashing a ghost up with armor lock was funny). So after looking at the beta reveal I wasn't sure if I liked it or didn't.

After reading EG's preview I'm under the impression that there are no loadouts and you can only have 1 AA active at a given time, I think this is the right way to go about it and since someone can evade a dangerous situation faster but whilst sprinting the shield wont recharge, so if your quick enough you can scope them out before the shield recharges that balances out the sprint system. There is no penalty for hip firing or using the smart scope, but I guess when going ADS your accuracy is higher on further targets. The ground pound also has it's draw backs whilst it's charging up (in the air) you are vulnerable. So my take is that 343 have really thought out drawbacks to having these abilities so they don't overtake the game like perks do in CoD.

If I pick up an X1 I will try out the beta. I think 343i knew they messed up with H:4 and have tried to make a variety of changes in H:5 by bringing pack map control and super weapon pick ups instead of having loadouts. They got rid off the unlock progression (thank god) so everything is open to everyone regardless of your rank. No more weapon drops after a time has expired. These are positive changes IMO and because of it I'm willing to give 343i the benefit of the doubt. I just hope that they bring back some massive BTB maps and have more positive changes with vehicles.

Just one more thing I hope they bring back the original announcer that guy was boss!

Is it picking abilities, or you have them all as standard moves? I hope it's the latter. It wouldn't fit the narrative of everyone being equal at the start if you had to pick abilities, and it would just be a continuation of what they had been doing. I think these are all moves you have at your disposal. Well, I hope so, anyway.

 

[Hoptimus]

Is it picking abilities, or you have them all as standard moves? I hope it's the latter. It wouldn't fit the narrative of everyone being equal at the start if you had to pick abilities, and it would just be a continuation of what they had been doing. I think these are all moves you have at your disposal. Well, I hope so, anyway.

According to what I read/saw in Halo 5 the Spartans all have the same abilities and load outs. IT's all equal again and now its back to HOW you USE it.

 

[Frozpot]

According to what I read/saw in Halo 5 the Spartans all have the same abilities and load outs. IT's all equal again and now its back to HOW you USE it.

This is how it SHOULD be! Don't look at Youtube comments for this game- the stupidity is immense! Lots of COD bulls***. It's amazing that the game gets so much flack, and yet it seems to be these moron's only reference point for shooters. People also don't seem to understand that even if a feature is similar, that doesn't mean it plays the same, nor does it mean that it doesn't work completely different. Halo could technically rip anything from COD exactly as it was, and it would still play massively different because of the core gameplay and how much damage you can take before dying. What works in one scenario may not in another just from that alone.

Somehow Halo is not Halo unless you keep it exactly the same as it was in CE. The problem with that, is the game has pretty big changes between iterations. They don't look big on the surface, but they can drastically change the flow of the game. Of course, I guarantee much of this response is coming from younger kids echoing the complain train so they sound like "legitimate" fans without actually considering the issue.

It looks like 343 is putting a lot of consideration into Halo5, and that is encouraging.

 

[Kerosene31]

This is how it SHOULD be! Don't look at Youtube comments for this game- the stupidity is immense! Lots of COD bulls***. It's amazing that the game gets so much flack, and yet it seems to be these moron's only reference point for shooters. People also don't seem to understand that even if a feature is similar, that doesn't mean it plays the same, nor does it mean that it doesn't work completely different. Halo could technically rip anything from COD exactly as it was, and it would still play massively different because of the core gameplay and how much damage you can take before dying. What works in one scenario may not in another just from that alone.

Somehow Halo is not Halo unless you keep it exactly the same as it was in CE. The problem with that, is the game has pretty big changes between iterations. They don't look big on the surface, but they can drastically change the flow of the game. Of course, I guarantee much of this response is coming from younger kids echoing the complain train so they sound like "legitimate" fans without actually considering the issue.

It looks like 343 is putting a lot of consideration into Halo5, and that is encouraging.

Halo takes way, way too much abuse. People say they love the old school Halo, but they have to modernize things and "speed" the game up a bit or it is going to die. The player numbers in the past few Halo games have been pretty terrible.

Comparing Halo to COD is just extreme. Halo 4's COD elements weren't that big a deal. I'd prefer the game without them and I guess most would, but they didn't ruin the experience. Halo 4 was still Halo.

People treat Halo like a religion and lash out at any changes. 343 needs to listen to people to some extent, but at the end of the day come up with a clear vision and a fun game.

 

[yankeessuck]

Halo takes way, way too much abuse. People say they love the old school Halo, but they have to modernize things and "speed" the game up a bit or it is going to die. The player numbers in the past few Halo games have been pretty terrible.

Well they tried that with 4 and it doesn't work if its at the expense of what traditionally makes Halo fun. I do think the ideas of 5 are much more well thought out.

 

[Kerosene31]

Well they tried that with 4 and it doesn't work if its at the expense of what traditionally makes Halo fun. I do think the ideas of 5 are much more well thought out.

That's where the balance gets tricky. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, there has to be a balance between 1 on 1 shield duels that take forever and COD insta-kills. Distance also is huge. You want to have some longer range engagements, but not to where again everything is insta-kill. 4 struggled with that balance. After the very late last MP patch, I think they were getting closer. Maybe not perfect (hard to say, the player community was gone) but they had it better.

Even then, they'll never make everyone happy. I'd be ok with slower, more traditional Halo, but you know what? Other than a few of us old timers it wouldn't have a community. They can't cater to every whim of young kids, but they have to find ways to modernize the game.

Halo 4 had too many things like Kill streaks and leveling that angered people (they weren't good ideas, but they weren't that bad either).

 

[Hoptimus]

I liked most of the new in Halo 4 but yes there were some balance issues. The last thing I want though is a new Halo that plays like Halo 1-3. We already have that. Lets move forward but with balance. That is what I get from this Halo 5 so far.

 

[yankeessuck]

That's where the balance gets tricky. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, there has to be a balance between 1 on 1 shield duels that take forever and COD insta-kills. Distance also is huge. You want to have some longer range engagements, but not to where again everything is insta-kill. 4 struggled with that balance. After the very late last MP patch, I think they were getting closer. Maybe not perfect (hard to say, the player community was gone) but they had it better.

Even then, they'll never make everyone happy. I'd be ok with slower, more traditional Halo, but you know what? Other than a few of us old timers it wouldn't have a community. They can't cater to every whim of young kids, but they have to find ways to modernize the game.

Halo 4 had too many things like Kill streaks and leveling that angered people (they weren't good ideas, but they weren't that bad either).

But the problem is the people that expect COD type game play are just going to end up going back to COD anyway. 343 chased that community and that community was never going to stay. If they want to make changes they need to make real changes and not just play follow the leader.

 

[Kerosene31]

But the problem is the people that expect COD type game play are just going to end up going back to COD anyway. 343 chased that community and that community was never going to stay. If they want to make changes they need to make real changes and not just play follow the leader.

I agree, but my point is that every Halo game has never been a COD type game. Maybe they steal a few elements, but Halo has never been like the insane twitch game that is COD. Halo is miles away from becoming a COD clone. Games should be different, and have a formula that works. COD should be COD, Bf Bf, Halo should be Halo, etc.

 

[Nervusbreakdown]

BEAST MODE!

 

[Z A C K]

Looks pretty great.

 

[Kassen]

Kind of disappointed that they did not match the quality of the original armor suits advertised in the "First Look At Armor Unlocks" vid. I'm still super hyped for that 60fps Halo brawling.