Project Scorpio Realistic Expectations Part 1: Fillrate

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I am a sinner.
Sep 11, 2013
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Stopped reading after the first assumption where it said they are ordinary Jaguar cores. While it's true we can't bench mark against a core we haven't actually seen in use, it's also a fact that we can't say the cores are ordinary when MS has explicitly said the opposite.
 
Hmmm... Aparently Dehnus hasn't read the df article :

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth

the CPU technology has been customized to the point where Microsoft doesn't refer to them as Jaguar architecture any more
I have, and I said "for the sake of argument, let's assume it is the same". At the time of writing I didn't know any more information about the customization and didn't wish to assume or build castles in the sky. Until otherwise, it's best to assume it's a Jaguar, and don't underestimate the Jaguar, if you have the bandwidth space while coding with its Jaguar in mind in mind.. it can do a lot more than you think.

It also is a topic that I'll probably wait till last before I get deeper into it, as even with the limited information released after that article (mostly about cache and unloading draw calls to the GPU), we still don't know much about the actual changes.


Why would you just assume higher rather than to aim for the known and go from there?

Stopped reading after the first assumption where it said they are ordinary Jaguar cores. While it's true we can't bench mark against a core we haven't actually seen in use, it's also a fact that we can't say the cores are ordinary when MS has explicitly said the opposite.

Really you stopped reading due to not assuming more than has been announced, its an article about fillrate not the CPU. We don't know any of the changes yet to the CPU itself outside of a higher clock, more Drawcall arithmetic offloaded to the GPU and cache improvements. The CPU also has very little to do with the maximum theoretical fillrate and texture fillrate of a GPU, so I didn't think it important to assume anything more than that for the moment anyway. I also simply cannot with a clear conscience promise you the world when you only show me a field. It is not a negative article at all, but okay, if you choose to see it as that, fair enough.
 
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The gap between Xbox One and Project Scorpio is much greater than the gap between PS4 and PS4 Pro.
 
Thanks for the write up Dehnus
I have no idea what most of it means, but those graphs have colours and stuff! Much appreciated! xo.
 
A very informative write up, I appreciate it and look forward to any future write ups. Thank you.
 
Great job Denhus! I enjoy your write ups. How did you learn this stuff?
Thanks, profession, education and hobby, more or less. I write 3d engines for CAD, and have a Msc in computer science. Forever most of this stuff it's quite easy to find out. There just is alot of FUD online. What triggered me too write this top was Anandtech's bull regarding ROP dictating bandwidth. It is limited by bw, it does not increase it. But I'm at the gym, I'll reply more in-depth later. But calculating fillrate is extremely easy. That's also why Anandtech's write up annoyed me. They should know better.
 
Thanks for the clarification on all of that, the AnandTech article was a bit perplexing. I'm amazed they managed to get so much wrong, usually that website is the goto for tech information. Even looking at it now, it looks like he changed quite a bit from when I first read it (pretty sure he was claiming Zen/Vega when I read it).
 
Great read! Nicely written, Dehnus! Looking forward to your update!
Thank you, next one probably will be about bandwidth.

Thanks for the clarification on all of that, the AnandTech article was a bit perplexing. I'm amazed they managed to get so much wrong, usually that website is the goto for tech information. Even looking at it now, it looks like he changed quite a bit from when I first read it (pretty sure he was claiming Zen/Vega when I read it).
Yeah I was also very surprised by it, and not in a positive manner. I expected better of a site like AnandTech, they really dropped the ball in that article. What bugs me the most is that I already heard/read many people quoting it as fact and that there has yet to be a retraction of the article or a correction. It's like Motorweek claiming your scooter can go just as fast as your motorcycle as both have 2 cylinders ;).

Also there seem to be some features of VEGA in Project Scorpio, the optimization regarding the cache latency. It seems MS choose to drop FP16 support in favour of it. For good reason really, sorry but an FP16 usually lacks the precision for most calculations you wish to do on a GPU. Some framebuffer effects you can pull off in FP16, but optimizing the latency of the GPU's cache and other optimizations to the pipeline seem far more beneficial. It probably also mend that the shaders could be smaller and thus safe die space, even if it is just 2% of surface reduction total, it still starts to add up once you have to have a full waver of the APUs.

We are talking about millions of APUs here over the life of the Console, so at one million APUs it means 20 000 APU's bonus. Whatever the decision, whether it is to save cost or to implement some other VEGA feature, I agree with it.

I mean if you look at it, the chip is 3 square millimeters smaller than the original Xbox One APU!
But has a transistor count that is 2 billion (40%!) higher. In theory, if one disregards R&D cost and assuming the yield is the same per wafer, this thing is 0.83 % cheaper to produce than an original Xbox One APU (Not the S). So for all intends and purposes it probably is, considering the same R&D costs and yields (Very important these two ;)), the same price! :p

399 seems to be very possible. Unless GDDR5 prices take a price hike, but that is very unlikely.

* Source of APU Size:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One#Hardware_comparison
 
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Thanks, profession, education and hobby, more or less. I write 3d engines for CAD, and have a Msc in computer science. Forever most of this stuff it's quite easy to find out. There just is alot of FUD online. What triggered me too write this top was Anandtech's bull regarding ROP dictating bandwidth. It is limited by bw, it does not increase it. But I'm at the gym, I'll reply more in-depth later. But calculating fillrate is extremely easy. That's also why Anandtech's write up annoyed me. They should know better.

You did a good job explaining the fillrate. Anandtech's speculation that Scorpio was wasting the RAM due to the CPU didn't make sense...especially since "too much RAM" has never been a thing...ever...in console architecture. Good job simplifying it.
 
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The gap between Xbox One and Project Scorpio is much greater than the gap between PS4 and PS4 Pro.
Okay a bit more in depth. The fill rate difference seems very much a bigger jump from PS4 Pro to Project Scorpio than from PS4 to PS4 Pro. But I suggest you don't even keep those in mind and look at the comparison with the Xbox One S ;). You can just see from the fill rate and bandwith that the Scorpio is designed to run those games (900p and 1080P) in full 4K. Not just that, but with textures and assets upgraded to benefit that 4K resolution. The PS4 Pro on the other hand is more of an upscale stopgap solution to run PS4 games in a higher resolution and to allow for a better experience in VR.

Demanding PS4 games, that take quite a bit out of the hardware will have a very difficult time to reach full 4k, even if the assets remain the same. Checkerboarding is a solution here though, but it won't always be enough. But since the Xbox One (and the S) already have a power disadvantage compared to the PS4, MS could go for a full 4K solution. Including allowing for some more headroom for 4K texture and other assets, and it shows (at least in Bandwidth and fillrate) to deliver on that promise (for 1080P and 900P games that is).

Just please do not expect a full generational leap ;). It's a bit more like PC Engine vs PC Engine SuperGrafx, one pwns the other, but not as much as a SEGA Saturn pwns it ;).
Yes Mid Generation upgrades are nothing new ;), we had them before :D.

PS: It is also why MS can promise you that your games will keep running on the One and One S ;). One is without HDR, One S has the extra horses underneath for HDR and the Scorpio the extra horses for 4K + HDR + 4K assets. It really is One S games + 4K assets in 4K :). And that is nothing to raise one's nose in disgust at :).
 
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You did a good job explaining the fillrate. Anandtech's speculation that Scorpio was wasting the RAM due to the CPU didn't make sense...especially since "too much RAM" has never been a thing...ever...in console architecture. Good job simplifying it.
Thanks again, and yeah, it seemed like a hatchet job for clicks. Roger Stone would have been proud of that one ;). I mean I'm pretty much certain they knew better.
Honestly haven't read an article from AnandTech for some time. Their quality and technical summaries have been suspect lately.
But really they should still know that ROPs are effected by clock, and that they are limited by not dictating bandwidth. Even if MS added 48ROPs it would simply have been bandwidth starved again and thus a waste of silicon.

Thanks man :).
 
Thanks for the write up Dehnus
I have no idea what most of it means, but those graphs have colours and stuff! Much appreciated! xo.
I'm sure you do, it's very simple. Think of a ROP as a piece of chalk and you having to write lines on a Blackboard Bart Simpson style ;). The more you have the more you can fill up that blackboard.
Now think of bandwidth as that wooden chalk holder, the more you can fit on there, the more lines you can finish in the same time.

So it would be a waste of chalk to give you 16 pieces chalks when you can only fit 8 on the holder. ;). But in theory you would be able to fill up 16 lines or characters in one go. You don't have the space on the chalk holder ;).
 
Really you stopped reading due to not assuming more than has been announced, its an article about fillrate not the CPU. We don't know any of the changes yet to the CPU itself outside of a higher clock, more Drawcall arithmetic offloaded to the GPU and cache improvements. The CPU also has very little to do with the maximum theoretical fillrate and texture fillrate of a GPU, so I didn't think it important to assume anything more than that for the moment anyway. I also simply cannot with a clear conscience promise you the world when you only show me a field. It is not a negative article at all, but okay, if you choose to see it as that, fair enough.

Yes I stopped reading because you are making an assumption that goes against what the manufacturer is saying and is in fact less than what was announced if you trust what DF and MS are saying. I didn't say it's a negative article and I didn't refer to it or identify it as such. If I am going to read an analysis piece I think it's important (for myself) that the commentary is done based on what we know and not what we assume. In this case we know it's a highly customized Jaguar CPU.
 
Yes I stopped reading because you are making an assumption that goes against what the manufacturer is saying and is in fact less than what was announced if you trust what DF and MS are saying. I didn't say it's a negative article and I didn't refer to it or identify it as such. If I am going to read an analysis piece I think it's important (for myself) that the commentary is done based on what we know and not what we assume. In this case we know it's a highly customized Jaguar CPU.

The problem is that saying it's "a highly customized Jaguar CPU" tells us absolutely nothing as to whether or not it has improved functionality that would need to be accounted for in this analysis. For the intent of the article though, I'm not sure how it would need to fit in either way.

That's my main beef with the Digital Foundry articles; they keep mentioning all these customizations, profiling and improvements but barely mention any of them specifically or how they actually improve over what we already know of the older system. For instance, they mention Scorpio's Vega features, but then go on to only name PS4 Pro specific Vega features... like, how is that useful at all?
 
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Yes I stopped reading because you are making an assumption that goes against what the manufacturer is saying and is in fact less than what was announced if you trust what DF and MS are saying. I didn't say it's a negative article and I didn't refer to it or identify it as such. If I am going to read an analysis piece I think it's important (for myself) that the commentary is done based on what we know and not what we assume. In this case we know it's a highly customized Jaguar CPU.
And how does it relate to fill rate? Seriously we don't know how it is customized so we cannot make any assumption. We do know that it is based on Jaguar. That way we can make a conservative estimate, which means we stay on the safe side.

Especially on a requirement that that has nothing to do with that particular part of the project.

But let's take Computers out of this and go to Engineering.

We are building a suspension bridge and we are discussing the support characteristics of the concrete pillars. One of the Engineers says :"Look we know there is this new Alloy, our supplier said it is all the rage but hasn't given any details yet. It is better than the previous alloy, but let's for now just assume it has the same tensile strength and get on with our requirements, for the concrete pillars".

Then some Engineer comes in and goes "NOOO! LET US DOUBLE THE TENSILE STRENGTH! The Manufacturer says it's better than the previous alloy!".

Just to be done with it, the other engineers decide to double the tensile strength specification in the books. It has no effect on the concrete anyway even though it has no effect on the concrete pillars itself. Everybody continues but the specification stays in the records. We use this new alloy and it is magnificent, 70% more tensile strength and a reduction of weight. However on certain parts of the bridge they have use the requirement possibility of "double the tensile strength" as some other engineers looked it up in the books and came about thosenumbers. They didn't check with anybody they just used it in their calculations.

This goes well for ten years, but one day the bridge collapses. Hundreds dead, thousands injured.


So yes, it is better to steer on the conservative side and calculate with what we know, especially in engineering. With a Game Console nobody can die, but in Engineering and even Computer Science there can be lives on the line. For instance the logical steps in a the driver program for a CT machine. There are requirements to be met, like tensile strength, which then dictates the thickness of the steel wire. And in CT machine amount of X-Ray Radiation, so you don't flood the patient with too much radiation and cause for irreparable damage.

You have requirements and those must be met, to meet them you sometimes need to clearly assume the old specification.

And before you go "this doesn't matter.". It does, many lives have been lost due to these kind of decisions and people making a mistake, meaning well, being really motivated, not asking just assuming the numbers are correct, the list goes on.

It isn't just for ease of comparison, but it also is just a good practice. Until Microsoft tells us what the specifications are of their CPU, which will be filled with buzzwords so I'd need time to study it, we can't assume anything.
 
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The problem is that saying it's "a highly customized Jaguar CPU" tells us absolutely nothing as to whether or not it has improved functionality that would need to be accounted for in this analysis. For the intent of the article though, I'm not sure how it would need to fit in either way.

That's my main beef with the Digital Foundry articles; they keep mentioning all these customizations, profiling and improvements but barely mention any of them specifically or how they actually improve over what we already know of the older system. For instance, they mention Scorpio's Vega features, but then go on to only name PS4 Pro specific Vega features... like, how is that useful at all?

It's not a problem. It's a statement of fact. The problem is making assumptions that contradicts what the manufacturer says. In my opinion the best thing to do in this case is not involve the CPU in an analysis piece since we have no details at all on it because, as you said yourself, we've been told absolutely nothing about it from a technical point of view.
 
Until Microsoft tells us what the specifications are of their CPU, which will be filled with buzzwords so I'd need time to study it, we can't assume anything.

What I'm highlighting in your comment is my entire point - we can't assume anything. When we do we're injecting supposition into something. That said you do make a good point about it being good for a minimal comparison benchmark. I hadn't consider that at all and I would completely agree.
 
And how does it relate to fill rate? Seriously we don't know how it is customized so we cannot make any assumption. We do know that it is based on Jaguar. That way we can make a conservative estimate, which means we stay on the safe side....

...It isn't just for ease of comparison, but it also is just a good practice. Until Microsoft tells us what the specifications are of their CPU, which will be filled with buzzwords so I'd need time to study it, we can't assume anything.

cautiously proceeding/relying on what we know, not on marketing spin. A very good explanation. And a very intelligent article. thank you.
 
Well, if Dehnus is basing it on the "vanilla" Jag in the existing XB1 it should be the lowest outcome possible correct? If the CPU is as costomized and more applicable to the filtrate it's only gonna be an even better outcome.
 
It isn't just for ease of comparison, but it also is just a good practice. Until Microsoft tells us what the specifications are of their CPU, which will be filled with buzzwords so I'd need time to study it, we can't assume anything.

That's (including what I cut out) a very reasonable way of looking at it. What we know is they've said it's highly customized and not really a Jaguar. What we don't know is exactly how. Your approach of saying "we don't know specifics, let's ballpark with the old values" is reasonable as long as you specify that, which you've done well. There's a leap between "we don't have specifics, let's estimate with the prior one" and "we don't have specifics, so it *IS* the prior one" that separates your work from some other opinions. ;)
 
Dehnus great article, can explain the sudden secret weapon of the pro doing fp16 & fp32 while Scorpio only does fp32. Sort of hot topic on another forum fp16 makes pro 8.4tf.