Applying Value to College Education

Vapor

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Sep 11, 2013
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Lately I've been reading articles and hearing radio talk about how college isn't what it's cracked up to be, in a nutshell, college is de-valued and isn't a necessity for a good paying job. I highly disagree with this notion, however, I continue to see more and more criticism against attending college and taking out student loans to pay for it, versus not attending at all and finding some niche-related job that will somehow give people the same salaries of college educated workers.

I graduated from a university with a Bachelor of Arts in Advertising. It took me nine months upon graduating to land a job. The actual job search process was daunting and stressful, but there was not shortage of entry-level advertising/marketing jobs available, they were out there, but guess what, they all wanted 3-5 years experience, a bachelor's degree and master's preferred (of course, but they don't wanna pay you for having it).

After five interviews with five different companies, I finally landed my first post-college job as an entry level marketing coordinator/graphic designer. My starting salary was $38,000, low in my opinion for a college graduate in the advertising/marketing industry, but after nine months, I had to take what I could get. Eventually after one year of employment, I got a 3% raise to $39,000, which is still nothing in my opinion. After one and half years of working at my first job, I started looking and landed another job earning $50,000. Now I'm three years out of college from 2010 and I'm making what I think I should have been making at my first job out of college.

On the radio I hear talk hosts say they got their stints in radio and didn't have to attend college. They brag about how they worked their way from the ground up and their hard work and dedication to their craft got them where they are today...well that may be true for people who started out in radio long ago, but that's not the reality for most folks these days. Likewise, I don't think people tell the entire 110% truth of how they actually got their careers.

Then there's the huge beef about student loans and how students should put themselves into extreme debt just to pay for college. As an example, Sean Hannity, a political radio host, says that he paid his way through college waiting tables and having small part-time/full-time jobs here and there. Really? I'd like to see someone actually be able to pay for four years of college on a waiter's salary...and living expenses...that's just an outright lie. I have many friends that get support from their families and don't have to take out student loans, but they still work part-time jobs to have the extra spending money outside of the necessities.

Then I have other friends who went the route of student loans like me. While I worked summers between college semesters, I paid for my college through student loans and grants, and my parents helped me out a long the way until I graduated. Now I'm paying about $400 a month in student loan payments, and will be doing this for the next 20 or until I advance enough in my career to make enough money to pay them off earlier.

Also, I recently got married last year and my wife makes about $30K per year, so our combined gross income is around $70K, we're buying our first house together. She has an associates degree, already paid for by her parents, so she has no debt.

So, depending on what you want to do with your life and what your goals are, I'd personally say that without college and my degree in advertising, it would pretty much be impossible for me to work in advertising/marketing. Maybe I could go work at a local newspaper selling advertising space over the phone and I'm sure that's something you don't need a college degree for, but that's not a career by any means.

I just get sick and tired of hearing people de-value college education. While some people can't afford it, there's definitely many ways to obtain the funds via student loans, but yes, there's a drawback, you will be in debt for quite a while, but I'd rather be in debt working a job I love than flipping burgers (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Anyone here value college? Do you de-value college? Share your opinions/thoughts.
 
I definitely value college and while I do think it's possible to land high paying jobs in my field (Computer Science) without a degree, it's MUCH easier to do so with a degree. I graduated in May of 2012 and started working at my first (and only) real job in May of 2012. I had two job offers before I even graduated and I was able to pick which one worked for me. Without going to college I know these offers wouldn't have been available to me. Not just because I wouldn't have the same skills, but also because I didn't know the same people. Networking in college is just as important as your classes, and that's something that is extremely difficult to get outside of college.

I am only about $50K in debt, and I'm only paying about $250 a month right now on my loans. I went to a state school, so luckily it was cheaper than other options but it's still expensive. I also had some scholarships that paid a good chunk of my tuition. I started at 55k and have gotten a 13% raise since then. College is worth it.
 
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Here's my only advice. College isn't worth if your fresh out of college and don't have a full on scholarship. You don't know what you'll be into 5-10 years into the future and the dream job you had in mind could be out of your skill range. I'd say wait 2-3 years, save up money, maybe go to community college and knock out some GE, all the while you do some research for jobs and colleges, but more importantly, live life a little and go to college a bit more matured.
 
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Here's my only advice. College isn't worth if your fresh out of college and don't have a full on scholarship. You don't know what you'll be into 5-10 years into the future and the dream job you had in mind could be out of your skill range. I'd say wait 2-3 years, save up money, maybe go to community college and knock out some GE, all the while you do some research for jobs and colleges, but more importantly, live life a little and go to college a bit more matured.

Did you mean don't goto college fresh out of high school?

I would agree that fresh out of high school, unless you're on scholarship academically or sports, community college is far cheaper and you can get all of your basic general reqs out of the way, I did that, and when I transferred to a university, I didn't have to provide those silly SAT/ACT scores, I just had to get a decent minimum 2.5 GPA (I know that's considered low) and they automatically accept you as long as you have enough hours to transfer.

Only downside to it is you're still living at home (if you don't move out on your own) and the atmosphere isn't as "fun" as universities are.
 
Did you mean don't goto college fresh out of high school?
Yes. I just remember my dad telling me that it was all a race and that you had to go into school ASAP. My experiences are a bit different. Don't wanna dive into my personal life, but to sum it up, there are definitely things I would've done differently.
 
Sharkboy makes a good point. College is disaster waiting to happen when parents shove kids into it. Most of the time, those same parents have never earned a college degree themselves so they don't even understand how to move ahead in Academia. Even afterward if the student graduates, they're entering a new job market and culture they don't understand. Many families continually think the Degree is the golden ticket to a high paying job. It is not a guarantee of anything.

As for myself, I'm about to find out first hand. Next week is final exams and then I finish an Associates in Cyber-Security. Despite the obvious demand for Cyber-Security to harden systems against hacking, I will not be able to find work in this field with just my degree unless I pull off a miracle of job networking. I will be lucky to find a job doing s***ty help desk or doing server support on a night shift or worst case join the Geek Squad. I need to find some way to prove myself to employers.

I guess the next step for me is to find work somewhere or cram hard for overpriced CompTIA Exams. That is the silly trap waiting for IT students. They come out with a degree to broke to afford the expensive Certifications and they can't find a job in their field.

This kind of brings me to question regarding the OP. For an IT Student, why not skip college and just cram for the Certifications? I will admit that the college classes can help a person pass, but you could also just buy the study guides or take an online course. If a person went to CompTIA and passed A+, Security+, Networking+, and Linux+, they would be very marketable in the job market.
 
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Yes. I just remember my dad telling me that it was all a race and that you had to go into school ASAP. My experiences are a bit different. Don't wanna dive into my personal life, but to sum it up, there are definitely things I would've done differently.

Seriously, did your dad have a college degree?
 
This kind of brings me to question regarding the OP. For an IT Student, why not skip college and just cram for the Certifications? I will admit that the college classes can help a person pass, but you could also just buy the study guides or take an online course. If a person went to CompTIA and passed A+, Security+, Networking+, and Linux+, they would be very marketable in the job market.

First, I'd like to say that I think college teaches you something beyond the educational thing. To be brutally honest, what you learn in college rarely actually applies to what you will be doing day to day in your career, your actual job teaches you the work, not the exams/papers/lectures/etc. Social skills, team building, time management, all of those things are what I personally took away from college and I have applied them to my career.

Secondly, as for skipping college and just going straight to cert tests, I'm guessing if your industry just requires certifications and no college education, then go for it, if you think you can do it. My industry and frankly many industries, require college degrees.

I know a lot of free-lance graphic designers who haven't taken one college course, but are self-taught graphic designers and they're damn good. However, if they want to apply for say...an in-house marketing/advertising/design team job, RARELY are they going to be able to get in without the degree. The degree acts as a filter to weed out applicants...sadly. Masters degrees are becoming even the next filter, commonly I've been seeing "Bachelors degree in advertising, marketing, related field is required, masters degree preferred"....yeah, I bet you prefer a masters degree.

My cousin is a computer programming wiz, and he's taken a few college courses but stopped going because he created a network of people and landed computer-related jobs without the need for a college education. That's so rare though.

My good friend I graduated with was a computer science major. He immediately started is masters in computer science...not because he wanted to but because he feels he has to in order to compete with the rest of the competition out in the industry.

This is why I can't stand it when someone who's a professional right now...who has probably 30-40 years of work experience tries to swing the college degree as some useless piece of paper. They probably haven't had to apply for a job in decades so they have no earthly f'ing clue what they're talking about.

Going back to the radio thing, if I were wanting to get into radio today...I can't just walk up to a radio station and say, can I work my way up from being a call screener to an actual host? I highly doubt you can just work your way up into being a radio host unless you do it yourself with your own money like say...DJ Wheat who has his own online video game show. How he got the money for all that gear is beyond me, but I don't think he went to college and he doesn't seem to be bad off.

Along the way, people tend to hide how they truly go into their jobs...it's like they're too much of a sissy to expose the actual truth. I will never hid the fact that my parents helped me during my college career and paid for my housing, food, etc. If it weren't for them, I have no idea how I would have gotten through college.

Like...I hate when people say, "oh I just got this sudden call for someone and I landed a job at Google"....ummmm no...there's more to the story you're not telling us.
 
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I guess it depends on the college. Strangely, most of my valuable experience has come from outside the official classes. I joined a Cyber-Defense Team on campus that consumes enormous amounts of my time and I get no grade for it. Yet I do think I have benefited from it as an intensive computer lab research experience.

Last week, I hacked the computer lab. I bumped everyone off the network with ARP Poisoning.

This weekend, I want to try DNS Spoofing and try to do other hacks. NOTE: The goal for this is to be an Ethical Hacker / Security Penetration Tester.

Aside from this area, most of my Technology classes have really been dull prep courses for the Certifications. Lots of boring Power Point sessions and coffee. o_O

As for gaining real personal development, I do think I benefited from my English Comp. 2 class. It was all about argumentative essays and I feel I have a better understanding of argument and rhetoric. Especially now if I listen to a jackass like Hannity lol.

Regarding things like time management, I'm an older student with work experience already, so I guess it just helped me a little bit. I was previously a Truck Driver so I really learned time management.
 
I disagree, you need a college degree to get in the door for most job interviews, also interning programs through the college help you get into the door with a good paying job waiting for you later.
bt I do agree if you decided to go to Shippensburg State rather than a University. Its all about the quality of the institution that matters. Sure your grades help but I would bank money that the C student from MIT is going to get that job over the A student from DeVry University.
 
I didn't read all the posts. Here are a few random thoughts...

Don't go to school for a degree that isn't in demand. A BA in communications, history, liberal arts, or general studies isn't going to exactly open doors. Associate degrees hold very little value over a high school diploma. These degrees might have helped with a job long ago, but it's different now. Research the area you want to study and find out what's in demand now and the future.

Where you go matters to an extent. ITTECH, Phoenix, infomercial colleges do not hold a lot of weight. It doesn't matter if you start at a community college, the important thing is a degree from a somewhat well known school. We don't consider degrees from University of Phoenix for example, but I just interviewed someone from Johnson & Whales.

Get your BA first, work then consider a Masters or PHD. My company paid for most of my Masters. My wife has two, although in retrospect she should have focused on one. You should know what you want to do for a very long time if you plan to get the next level.

Some fields don't require a degree. I work with dozens of programmers. Few have BAs, most have certifications, but all have years of experience programming. They're generally smart and have a desired skill.

When I was young college was a fun experience. You're exposed to so many different people. You learn different views. It's a life changing experience. When I went back again in my late 20s it wasn't the same.
 
I kind of wonder if you'd do okay going to a Tech School as long as you follow up and get the Certifications. Pheonix Online might look mediocre to many employers, but CompTIA Security+ is apparently a big deal.

Anyway, I'm about to get my Associates soon so I'll find out. :crazy:
 
Seriously, did your dad have a college degree?
He's been on and off for his master's in Criminology, but he's been a teacher for a majority of his life and now he's working at Chase bank thanks to his failed attempt the mortgage business. I think he just put too much stock into articles that encouraged getting a degree ASAP.
 
Sharkboy makes a good point. College is disaster waiting to happen when parents shove kids into it. Most of the time, those same parents have never earned a college degree themselves so they don't even understand how to move ahead in Academia. Even afterward if the student graduates, they're entering a new job market and culture they don't understand. Many families continually think the Degree is the golden ticket to a high paying job. It is not a guarantee of anything.

As for myself, I'm about to find out first hand. Next week is final exams and then I finish an Associates in Cyber-Security. Despite the obvious demand for Cyber-Security to harden systems against hacking, I will not be able to find work in this field with just my degree unless I pull off a miracle of job networking. I will be lucky to find a job doing s***ty help desk or doing server support on a night shift or worst case join the Geek Squad. I need to find some way to prove myself to employers.

I guess the next step for me is to find work somewhere or cram hard for overpriced CompTIA Exams. That is the silly trap waiting for IT students. They come out with a degree to broke to afford the expensive Certifications and they can't find a job in their field.

This kind of brings me to question regarding the OP. For an IT Student, why not skip college and just cram for the Certifications? I will admit that the college classes can help a person pass, but you could also just buy the study guides or take an online course. If a person went to CompTIA and passed A+, Security+, Networking+, and Linux+, they would be very marketable in the job market.
I know it may not always be possible, but a Bachelors would open a lot more doors than an Associates and all the certs in the world.
 
College + internships/externships + mad networking = profit

In law school, the school constantly is pushing you to do internships/externships and sending you notices about networking events and stuff.

Unless you are going to an ivy league school, you got to hustle these days even in undergrad to start opening doors.

I strongly believe that currently, that culture from law school and I'm sure other grad schools, of doing externships/internships and attending networking events, should be a top priority for undergrad students.

It really opens a lot of doors that can be helpful in finding employment. I'm about $200k in the hole from undergrad and law school. I had zero financial help from my parents. Luckily, I did a lot of networking during undergrad and actually worked for a law firm as a file clerk, then a legal assistant, and now as a law clerk during my summers/winter break( I go to school out of state from my home and that's where my job is). They offered my an associate job last year, $70k plus bonuses on settled cases once I pass the bar.

My younger brother will be doing a paid internship with a defense contractor next summer working on upgrading the software systems of a military transport vehicle and has worked on various space related projects through his school.

You got to hustle these days. It simply isn't like the old days where people like my pops can make 6-figures w/o an education. But I also agree with folks above that said that school isn't for everybody. You should make a conscious decision as to whether it really is for you or not. Maybe you will be happier attending a trade school or something. I have electrician/AC maintenance friends that make close to 6-figures if not more, but of course that entails manual labor.

School isn't cheap and can be something you will be paying off the rest of your life if you don't make the right decisions.
 
I have heard that college is getting more expensive every year. I remember reading in the news about couple of years ago, saying that if you want a child to go to college, now is the right time to save up money because within the next 20 years the cost will be extremely high. I entered two-year college as a graphic designer. After college is done, I've worked hard, and struggled, to search for the job. About a year later, I ended up working at the small print company (it was a good start, at least). Worked there for about two years. After that, I finally landed on my currently 8-year job: Amazon.com.

Amazon.com pays pretty well and it has nothing to do with my college stuff. I've thought to myself "Had I not gone to college, wouldn't I be able to work at Amazon.com 2 years earlier and still get good pay? Was my two-year college a huge waste of time?" Stuff like that. It seems to me that finding a job relate to college stuff requires a lot of luck and right-timing. It can be very frustrating (as I did in the past) and I feel people's pain. It makes me think about the future for my son. Questions like "Will he be able to afford to go college and get what he wants for the job?", "Is it worth the time for him to work very hard during college and, hopefully, to find the right job?", and stuff like that.

It is true that it is entire up to him, not me, to make a decision about going to college or not. It's just that I'd hate for him to go to college for several years and ending up find a job that has nothing to do with his interest/skills. Darn, wish college isn't expensive, though.
 
I have heard that college is getting more expensive every year..
Definitely true. Even for me going to a smaller state school, I would see the price of tuition raise a little bit every single year.
 
It's definitely a very subjective thing. Everyone is different, everyone learns differently, has different passions, etc. I see both sides of the argument, and I don't think you can completely argue one way or the other. Ultimately it's really a decision of what you think is best for you.

When those radio guys talk about it, I can kind of share similar feelings. More so that if you truly know what you want, you shouldn't let anything get in your way and you should continue to hold on to that dream. I studied graphic design as well and too often than not there were students who would only work on their portfolio if it was a class assignment. If there wasn't any school work to do it was kind of like they would instantly go into relax mode and not even think twice about using that time to push ahead and polish their skills. It was like they felt that if they had that degree that that was their ticket in and they didn't need to exert themselves much past that. If you are a Zuckerburg/Jobs type then I think it makes more sense to follow your gut if school is cramping your style.

For me school was a good complementary thing. I had started early learning the Adobe suite, when I was a freshman in high school and joined TXB and saw people making video game wallpapers (2001). Beginning freshman year studying graphic design I was helping some of the graduating seniors learn the Adobe programs it was kind of ridiculous. Their heads were so full of book knowledge, but they weren't experimenting. By my junior year I was getting contacted for freelance illustration work with clients like Nike, Adidas, Visa, etc. I felt very confused. I didn't know if I should stay in school or just get out there and freelance full time. My advisor told me school will always be there and I should listen to what I want. I dropped out of college in 2011, with one semester left. This year I went back and wrapped up and got my degree, it was bugging me that I hadn't just finished that last semester. I had taught myself the programs, but there was so much that I had gained from the experience at school that was invaluable- the people I met, figuring out more about myself, meeting other creatives, etc.

Professors definitely need to act less like bosses and treat education less like a business. I can imagine it can probably be difficult with larger sized classrooms. I was fortunate with my program that the professors were all able to spend individual time with me. Often times they would let me design my own assignments that would be more related to my interests.

Freelance is rough as hell. I'm doing illustrations for Nike right now, but soon I may apply for an in-house position somewhere. But ultimately my portfolio was able to show what it needed to show - that this is what I love to do and no degree/resume will shake that, they didn't care if I had graduated. So I can kind of see what the radio guys are trying to say, but every situation is different and I can definitely say a lot of what has come my way has been a healthy mix of both luck and perspiration. If I could go back and do school again, I wouldn't hesitate. I kind of have been wanting to go to grad school. I also think one of the key things that you can't teach in school is experience. Now matter how smart you are, if you don't get your hands dirty you don't know anything yet. Sorry that was long, all of this talk is a big interest of mine.
 
I'm not sure How much value I'd put on a degree, aside from allowing you to apply for positions that require such. As for college I think it's invaluable, if not just for the experience and networking possibilities.
 
Not everybody NEEDS college. A lot of very successful people dropped it or skipped it all together. Now mind you there are professions that demand it but more often than not you can skip it depending on your career choice. For as long as we can remember we have been brainwashed that you HAVE to go to college, poppycock I say. The majority the of people I have met and known who have went aren't even in the field they were studying. I have met chefs who have psych degrees, systems engineers with accounting degrees, salesmen with education degrees. To me while college can give you some great memories it can also riddle you with debt for decades to come. Why start off in the Red if you don't need to.
 
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Approaching Final Exam week. Reviewing my assignments and final projects. After that I'm going to cram for Security+.

I hope I can somehow land decent work with just an Associates. I find my tech classes to be insanely boring. I can't imagine this bulls*** is really what employers want. Strangely, I don't really have a complaint about the other required classes like Speech, Psychology, Algebra, or English, but the way they're teaching IT feels like a massive fail.

If I went 2 more years for a Bachelors, I'd chug coffee and entertain the idea of smoking cigarettes, and I'm not a smoker. Oddly enough, my brother is already a grad student and he became a smoker in college. I can now understand why.
 
Do it. It opens up doors. No guarantee it will make you a millionaire, but most high paying jobs are in a field that require ones.

Although, in this day and age, someone who is awesome at PC, internet, programming skills or anything that can be self taught who can prove their worth without a formal degree or diploma can get far.

But for most other stuff like medical, business, engineering, law etc.... you need it.

Formal education is one part opportunity, one part door opening, one part accomplishment. It really depends what career choice you want.

One thing that going to school offers is making lots of friends who can help you down the line. My first job out of school was because a friend of mine worked there and got me interviews despite my resume being totally garbage. We weren't in the same class year, but she knew my best buddy. We all went to the same university. She wasn't even a close friend but knew I was looking and helped me out.
 
wife is getting her master now and her total (our total) is about 50K. doing your AA at a two year helps a bunch. i went the other route and worked my ass and was underpaid and over worked for the last ten years. i started back to school about 12 months ago and will be switching to a four year in the spring, my total loan will be 30K after taking a bunch of classes at a two year.

This whole start from the ground up with no degree is nice if you have a trade or find someone that is willing to train you, other wise you'll be just like most of the people i hire for entry level jobs. desperate and s*** out of luck if you get s*** canned by your current employer.

The biggest problem i see is people over paying for their degree; there is no way you should spend 100k on a BS/BA, that insane and just flat out stupid. Yes having a known school on your resume will help you get an interview but most of the people i hire have come from interoffice referrals.Spend what you have to to get the job you want then network your ass off.