Bonnie Ross Wants To Attract Diversity With Diversity

[karmakid]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/halo-head-bonnie-ross-diversity-attracts-diversity-60-minutes/


https://www.gamespot.com/articles/halo-boss-wants-to-close-gender-gap-in-game-develo/1100-6465331/


Bonnie Ross, the head of Microsoft's dedicated Halo studio 343 Industries, has shared her thoughts on the difficulty of recruiting women in games development, and how she thinks educators could address the gender gap. In an interview with CBS News' 60 Minutes, Ross said she would love to bring more women onto the Halo team.

"Boys and men, the numbers are moving up. We are getting a lot more into computer science. But with women and girls, it's going down," she said. "In many times there's not even a way where I could bring a woman into a specific job because the candidates are just not there."

Ross went on to point out that because women are so in-demand at tech companies, the market is very competitive for recruiting them. She cited that women with computer science degrees who intern at Microsoft are sometimes offered full positions, but already have offers from 5-7 other big tech companies.

"These women, basically they open every door because we all want them, and there's so few of them, and they're amazingly talented," she said. "There's just not that many of them.

 

[JinCA]

This stuff just doesn't make sense to me, bring the best people in who WANT to be involved don't try to bring more people in based on their gender. A woman who's qualified isn't any better than a man who's qualified. These kinds of stories annoy me a bit, people gravitate to what they are interested in, gaming has never been something that a majority of females are interested in and that's why you don't have a lot of them trying to get into the field. I know we all see that misleading stat about the number of women gamers but if you remove mobile and things like pogo (stuff my mom plays) that number drops waaaaay down.

 

[starseeker]

A retorical question. Would anyone support allowing only Hispanic and Asians, or say give preferences to them, to be hired to NBA until reaching a demographic that’s is represented by the general population, because there are too many blacks?

My stand is always clear and simple. Hire base on meritocracy, & best way to remove discrimination is well, not discriminating anyone. I give rats about demographic. I don’t need more male nurses, the way I don’t need more female taxi drivers. I only want the most qualified people in the jobs.

 

[karmakid]

This stuff just doesn't make sense to me, bring the best people in who WANT to be involved don't try to bring more people in based on their gender. A woman who's qualified isn't any better than a man who's qualified. These kinds of stories annoy me a bit, people gravitate to what they are interested in, gaming has never been something that a majority of females are interested in and that's why you don't have a lot of them trying to get into the field. I know we all see that misleading stat about the number of women gamers but if you remove mobile and things like pogo (stuff my mom plays) that number drops waaaaay down.

I agree with you and starseeker that company’s should hire those who are qualified, but they should also take into account those who can also push said company beyond what they are, no matter who they are.

As for not many girls being interested in gaming I believe that’s gonna slowly change but there will come a point where there’ll be a big influx of females in the game industry. Too many of the older generation have had the light with many in the shadows, only a few peeking through and even less have got recognition for what they’ve done or are in the moment.

Just from personal experience my sister once told me that she didn’t like playing games with my brothers and I cos she felt it was a boys only thing, but she would play when no one was around. My nieces now are more interested in gaming than most of my nephews, one loves watching me play halo and makes lil stories for the Spartans she likes and even draws them lol but that same neice teams up with one of her older boy cousins to play and create said stories, usually while playing Switch.

One niece is really into Minecraft at school, as is one nephew but he’s autistic so he finds relief in it.


We just need more people to inspirethe next generation so we can still have this world of gaming to enjoy and relate to.

 

[JinCA]

I agree with you and starseeker that company’s should hire those who are qualified, but they should also take into account those who can also push said company beyond what they are, no matter who they are.

As for not many girls being interested in gaming I believe that’s gonna slowly change but there will come a point where there’ll be a big influx of females in the game industry. Too many of the older generation have had the light with many in the shadows, only a few peeking through and even less have got recognition for what they’ve done or are in the moment.

Just from personal experience my sister once told me that she didn’t like playing games with my brothers and I cos she felt it was a boys only thing, but she would play when no one was around. My nieces now are more interested in gaming than most of my nephews, one loves watching me play halo and makes lil stories for the Spartans she likes and even draws them lol but that same neice teams up with one of her older boy cousins to play and create said stories, usually while playing Switch.

One niece is really into Minecraft at school, as is one nephew but he’s autistic so he finds relief in it.


We just need more people to inspirethe next generation so we can still have this world of gaming to enjoy and relate to.

I get what you are saying I just think people pay too much attention to things like gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation. Representation in story telling is important but you can't force people into fields they don't care to be involved in, if qualified women get involved more in gaming that's great but I think this PR move to "push for more women" just for the sake of it is silly. Look what happened with Star Wars, they were all proud to have a woman running it and she clearly didn't get the series and is well on her way to ruining it. This woman in charge of 343 isn't doing a great job with Halo either, I don't know how hands on she actually is with the day to day stuff but their storytelling is awful, Bungie was on the decline in that area but they were still quite a bit better than 343 in that regard.

 

[menace-uk-]

Wanting to close tge gender gap is fine...as long as you aren't blindly doing it and just hiring women because they are women. With something like gameing, especially console gaming, I would imgaine the amount of women in the industry is proportionate to the amount of female gamers anyway.

 

[yankeessuck]

This stuff just doesn't make sense to me, bring the best people in who WANT to be involved don't try to bring more people in based on their gender. A woman who's qualified isn't any better than a man who's qualified. These kinds of stories annoy me a bit, people gravitate to what they are interested in, gaming has never been something that a majority of females are interested in and that's why you don't have a lot of them trying to get into the field. I know we all see that misleading stat about the number of women gamers but if you remove mobile and things like pogo (stuff my mom plays) that number drops waaaaay down.

She seems to be talking more about getting girls interested in the field as opposed to hiring any Jane Blow off the street.

 

[Dno69]

She seems to be talking more about getting girls interested in the field as opposed to hiring any Jane Blow off the street.

That's what I took from that little news blurb as well.

 

[hrudey]

She seems to be talking more about getting girls interested in the field as opposed to hiring any Jane Blow off the street.

Precisely. I think a lot of it is that they're trying to push for more inclusion in STEM education for girls - convince them to try it rather than fall back on the "oh, that's boys stuff, you go get into nursing/education/whatever" mindset.

 

[Two Pennys Worth]

I’m all for equality of opportunity but I’m dead against equality of outcome. This forced diversity drives me up the wall. Jobs should be given on merit not sex, skin colour or sexual preference. Don’t care what sex, race or creed makes the games as long as they’re the best applicant for the job. This won’t always be the case with forced equality.

 

[hrudey]

I’m all for equality of opportunity but I’m dead against equality of outcome. This forced diversity drives me up the wall. Jobs should be given on merit not sex, skin colour or sexual preference. Don’t care what sex, race or creed makes the games as long as they’re the best applicant for the job. This won’t always be the case with forced equality.

Then, with all due respect, read what she's saying rather than arguing against the strawman (or, I guess strawwoman) of quotas. She's saying specifically they'd love to hire more women, but they're just not there, because they're not getting introduced to computer science in school, which as someone in technology and with someone with children in the elementary and middle school range, I can absolutely confirm to still be the case. They're getting some exposure, but realistically at this point to have any real depth of learning about coding or any other computer science stuff, you pretty much have to opt in. My older son is starting high school next year and they do have "academies" within the high school where they can learn specialized/vocational stuff and he's going into the computer science/coding track, and he did take a digital info tech elective this year, but if he didn't have that interest I don't know that he would have had any introduction to computer science at all. And this is her point - she said for example that 91% of girls identify as creative, and they generally don't view computer science as a creative field. Expose them to it, and then maybe some percentage of them find they like it and have an aptitude for it, and there's the "supply" issue solved.

 

[Frozpot]

Then, with all due respect, read what she's saying rather than arguing against the strawman (or, I guess strawwoman) of quotas. She's saying specifically they'd love to hire more women, but they're just not there, because they're not getting introduced to computer science in school, which as someone in technology and with someone with children in the elementary and middle school range, I can absolutely confirm to still be the case. They're getting some exposure, but realistically at this point to have any real depth of learning about coding or any other computer science stuff, you pretty much have to opt in. My older son is starting high school next year and they do have "academies" within the high school where they can learn specialized/vocational stuff and he's going into the computer science/coding track, and he did take a digital info tech elective this year, but if he didn't have that interest I don't know that he would have had any introduction to computer science at all. And this is her point - she said for example that 91% of girls identify as creative, and they generally don't view computer science as a creative field. Expose them to it, and then maybe some percentage of them find they like it and have an aptitude for it, and there's the "supply" issue solved.

I just don't know how you can say they aren't exposed to it. No one takes boys aside and gives them extra exposure. They are just more into it. There is evidence for a biological connection of males to "things" and females to "beings".

This manifests in the very obvious attraction for females to fields like Nursing and Teaching. No one gives a s*** about getting men into these fields. I get that we are talking video games here, but it's larger than that.

There is also something to be said that for the women/girls into games- they are interested in them as they have been, so changing that up (supposedly by bringing in different demographics), would that even BE the net positive? How about just letting the people be into what they want? This push to get people to like things outside of a natural development into it is weird social engineering.

Moreover, this s*** just treats Women like children. Like they need you (or someone else) to tell them what they like or should be into. That kind of constant pandering and hand-wringing like I'm some underdeveloped invalid that needed a constant pat on the head would drive me up the wall.

Hell, my daughter has the exact exposure as my son in my household. In fact, she is my buddy when it comes to watching superhero movies. She loves Captain America and Venom, and kinda likes Black Widow and Scarlet witch. That said, she is faaaar more likely to watch cartoons and play with dolls than play games (usually Minecraft with her brother). In fact, I'm not sure she'd care about games much at all if my son wasn't drawing her to them. Anecdotal, but hardly a one-off case.

 

[hrudey]

I just don't know how you can say they aren't exposed to it. No one takes boys aside and gives them extra exposure. They are just more into it. There is evidence for a biological connection of males to "things" and females to "beings".

This manifests in the very obvious attraction for females to fields like Nursing and Teaching. No one gives a s*** about getting men into these fields. I get that we are talking video games here, but it's larger than that.

There is also something to be said that for the women/girls into games- they are interested in them as they have been, so changing that up (supposedly by bringing in different demographics), would that even BE the net positive? How about just letting the people be into what they want? This push to get people to like things outside of a natural development into it is weird social engineering.

Moreover, this s*** just treats Women like children. Like they need you (or someone else) to tell them what they like or should be into. That kind of constant pandering and hand-wringing like I'm some underdeveloped invalid that needed a constant pat on the head would drive me up the wall.

Hell, my daughter has the exact exposure as my son in my household. In fact, she is my buddy when it comes to watching superhero movies. She loves Captain America and Venom, and kinda likes Black Widow and Scarlet witch. That said, she is faaaar more likely to watch cartoons and play with dolls than play games (usually Minecraft with her brother). In fact, I'm not sure she'd care about games much at all if my son wasn't drawing her to them. Anecdotal, but hardly a one-off case.

How much computer science are children taught in schools? Some self-select into it later, in places where it's offered, but I think the point that there should be some requirement for at least some basic coding or office software or something else is a fair argument. I mean, many kids aren't into science, or math, or English, or History, or Art, or speaking a foreign language, but as a society it's determined that there's enough value to those subjects that they're mandatory as part of a high school curriculum and most of those also at middle school level. Computer science should probably also have a place in there (maybe as a replacement for one of the math or science years).

 

[hrudey]

Moreover, this s*** just treats Women like children. Like they need you (or someone else) to tell them what they like or should be into. That kind of constant pandering and hand-wringing like I'm some underdeveloped invalid that needed a constant pat on the head would drive me up the wall.

This part I want to address separately. I'm not saying go out to people in f***ing college and try to tell them what to be. I'm talking about middle school age, maybe earlier, and expose them to computer science. Literally treating children like children.

 

[JinCA]

She seems to be talking more about getting girls interested in the field as opposed to hiring any Jane Blow off the street.

I get that but again I don't see what the push is for, if girls become interested in it over time and get into it organically that's awesome but pushing for it doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

 

[Frozpot]

This part I want to address separately. I'm not saying go out to people in f***ing college and try to tell them what to be. I'm talking about middle school age, maybe earlier, and expose them to computer science. Literally treating children like children.

That's fine, and needed for a more technically advanced future. It's this weird gendered focus that I have issues with. Offer it to all kids and let people follow their interests. I never said that they shouldn't expose kids or try to inspire- just quit acting like there is some effort to neglect women and that they need some special treatment because they aren't manifesting interests in areas you want them to for whatever reason.

This bulls*** infantillizing narrative about some societal effort to hold women down, and that they can't make it without Your (big Y, not necessarily you specifically) almighty hand has got to stop. It's so nauseatingly divisive and ham-fisted.

I don't see why Bonnie can't give the same message to kids and by virtue of being such a prominent female (along with Henning and Yu), demonstrate that women also have a prominent effect on gaming. No division, and still getting your point across without treating girls like they are r******d. Oh, and gosh-darn it- Inspiring PEOPLE, not a carved segment of them. That's what we want, right?

 

[Frozpot]

I get that but again I don't see what the push is for, if girls become interested in it over time and get into it organically that's awesome but pushing for it doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

T

Yes, and we want people with passion contributing, not people coerced. All you get is contrived non-sense, and goodness knows we have enough of THAT.

 

[eVo7]

UBISOFT have started to close the gender gap in The Division 2.

In the Division 2, there is no male or female or gender selection option when creating your character, it has aptly been renamed to "body type"

 

[Videodrome]

Aren't women outpacing men in college now? Makes sense to encourage them toward tech. They're trending as the next major group with higher education.

 

[Two Pennys Worth]

Then, with all due respect, read what she's saying rather than arguing against the strawman (or, I guess strawwoman) of quotas. She's saying specifically they'd love to hire more women, but they're just not there, because they're not getting introduced to computer science in school, which as someone in technology and with someone with children in the elementary and middle school range, I can absolutely confirm to still be the case. They're getting some exposure, but realistically at this point to have any real depth of learning about coding or any other computer science stuff, you pretty much have to opt in. My older son is starting high school next year and they do have "academies" within the high school where they can learn specialized/vocational stuff and he's going into the computer science/coding track, and he did take a digital info tech elective this year, but if he didn't have that interest I don't know that he would have had any introduction to computer science at all. And this is her point - she said for example that 91% of girls identify as creative, and they generally don't view computer science as a creative field. Expose them to it, and then maybe some percentage of them find they like it and have an aptitude for it, and there's the "supply" issue solved.

As I said, I’m all for equality of opportunity. It would be a great to introduce boys and girls to tech and coding early so they both have an equal opportunity to explore those fields when considering their careers. Once companies start mandating certain targets to be met for hiring, there’s going to be better qualified people not getting a job because they don’t tick a certain box.
I think this kind of social engineering just causes even more divisions in society.

 

[Viktor]

 

[Zcythe]

No offense, but I’ll concern myself with the issue of people trying to tell/teach our children that they don’t have a gender to begin with first...

 

[Videodrome]

Could this have a parallel with other technical and creative industries like movies?

It seems like in the early days and for a long time, Hollywood was a male dominated business especially on the executive and technical end right? Eventually, women step into these roles instead of just being actresses.

Naturally, they are enthusiastic about this and are encouraging to others who want to try these kinds of jobs. What if that's all this is, but it gets blown up into a sinister agenda just because it's a news story or it runs across social media?


As for equality of opportunity, maybe it's people like this that made that kind of progress and want it known that progress was made so that girls don't snub their nose at whole industries under assumptions that are thankfully becoming obsolete.






Seriously does Foster have a social agenda here or trying to ham-fistedly demand quotas and control the young daughters of families? Or does she see and lingering imbalance and just wondering what that is about. There may even be some weird lingering attitude from studios about perceived skill or leadership ability.

It can I suppose blow up into more than was intended if it becomes a Tweet for some reason.

 

[starseeker]

I think no one is against encouraging more women into game development. As long as it was not done at expanse of merit.

Personally I am very focal about effort to attract talented people to STEM, being a graduate from STEM myself. However it must be something that the people wanted, not forced to fit a demographic, or worst, political agenda.

The reason not many women are in STEM is because most women are simply not as interested the same way most guys are not into nursing and fashion design. At least that is my experience.

But If there are barriers to prevent or discouraged women from going to STEM, we should be removing them.

 

[yankeessuck]

Naturally, they are enthusiastic about this and are encouraging to others who want to try these kinds of jobs. What if that's all this is, but it gets blown up into a sinister agenda just because it's a news story or it runs across social media?

People overreacting to something on the internet?

 

[CFogle21]

UBISOFT have started to close the gender gap in The Division 2.

In the Division 2, there is no male or female or gender selection option when creating your character, it has aptly been renamed to "body type"

Seriously?

 

[eVo7]

Seriously?

Yes. That's how the game was in the beta. It took me 10 mins to figure out how to make my character a male because of it.

 

[Frozpot]

UBISOFT have started to close the gender gap in The Division 2.

In the Division 2, there is no male or female or gender selection option when creating your character, it has aptly been renamed to "body type"

There are also a looot of Female fighter NPCs. It makes you wonder if most of the dudes were killed off in the apocalypse, lol. It's pretty cringy. Reminds me of Far Cry 5 when pretty much all the hunters were women (men were fishermen). I didn't realize there were so many black female hunters in Montana, or wherever that was.

I get that you want to make sure you get people into a game to feel included and what-not, but they really hurt the believability with how overboard they go.

 

[Frozpot]

Aren't women outpacing men in college now? Makes sense to encourage them toward tech. They're trending as the next major group with higher education.

They are outpacing men in college. Probably because of all that focused attention and programs. I think I even read something out of the UK that said now they are starting to look into programs to work on the gender imbalance they created against men, lol. It's all so silly. Guess they have to feel useful somehow...

The laughable notion that you fight "sexism"/racism by being sexist/racist.