Discussion about optimization

[Kerosene31]

Transplanted from the PS4 Neo thread.

Yet somehow PC games manage to cost less despite far more varion to deal with. Different, mobos, architectures, multiple different graphics cards from different manufacturers and methods. Unknown amounts of vram and system ram.

Yeah, people are blowing this out of proportion. Anything made for the two new skus are made on known hardware, so the console bennies will still exist.

That is very true, but a LOT of PC games have awful optimization. PC games sometimes have crazy system specs, way beyond the console version.
PC gamers just throw a big enough rig at a game and it runs fine. Console games need a lot more optimization not to run like poo.

There have been at least a few games that ran fine on consoles but didn't on PC. That Batman game comes to mind and another big one that I can't think of.

 

[pravus]

i think one of the reasons with the cheaper prices on PC is that the publisher isn't giving money to the hardware manufacturer, unlike with consoles where Sony/MS/Nintendo get a handsome cut.

Valve and GOG get that same 30% cut if it's released on Steam.

That is very true, but a LOT of PC games have awful optimization. PC games sometimes have crazy system specs, way beyond the console version.
PC gamers just throw a big enough rig at a game and it runs fine. Console games need a lot more optimization not to run like poo.

There have been at least a few games that ran fine on consoles but didn't on PC. That Batman game comes to mind and another big one that I can't think of.

I can't think of a game released that needs a monster rig to run at or above console level with a similarly specd computer.

That Batman game everyone lost their mind about still runs way better than console on similar specs... the issue with that game is that it had terrible frametimes and it was ridiculously hard to keep at 60 regardless of how you set things. It matched the 30fps perfectly though.

 

[Kerosene31]

I can't think of a game released that needs a monster rig to run at or above console level with a similarly specd computer.

That Batman game everyone lost their mind about still runs way better than console on similar specs... the issue with that game is that it had terrible frametimes and it was ridiculously hard to keep at 60 regardless of how you set things. It matched the 30fps perfectly though.

Batman was pulled off Steam because it was so unplayable. I'm sure it was patched later but it was a mess on PC at launch. FPS drops to 10 or less with a great card at the time.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/ho...-disaster-is-a-turning-point-for-broken-games

http://www.pcgamer.com/batman-arkham-knights-launch-appears-to-be-a-disaster/

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/batman-ark...erformance-issues-reported-launch-day-1507484

It is one of the worst launches in recent memory, yet you pretend like it didn't happen?

http://www.gameskinny.com/yrq6t/forget-arkham-knight-here-are-the-10-worst-pc-ports-of-all-time

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/pc-ports-are-consistently-shoddy-and-its-embrassing/

 

[Kassen]

That is very true, but a LOT of PC games have awful optimization. PC games sometimes have crazy system specs, way beyond the console version.
PC gamers just throw a big enough rig at a game and it runs fine. Console games need a lot more optimization not to run like poo.

There have been at least a few games that ran fine on consoles but didn't on PC. That Batman game comes to mind and another big one that I can't think of.

PC games aren't unoptimized. Bringing up "that Batman game" and nothing else doesn't warrant merit.

 

[Kerosene31]

PC games aren't unoptimized. Bringing up "that Batman game" and nothing else doesn't warrant merit.

Some are. Some aren't. Not sure why you'd make such a blanket statement.

 

[pravus]

Batman was pulled off Steam because it was so unplayable. I'm sure it was patched later but it was a mess on PC at launch. FPS drops to 10 or less with a great card at the time.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/ho...-disaster-is-a-turning-point-for-broken-games

http://www.pcgamer.com/batman-arkham-knights-launch-appears-to-be-a-disaster/

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/batman-ark...erformance-issues-reported-launch-day-1507484

It is one of the worst launches in recent memory, yet you pretend like it didn't happen?

http://www.gameskinny.com/yrq6t/forget-arkham-knight-here-are-the-10-worst-pc-ports-of-all-time

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/pc-ports-are-consistently-shoddy-and-its-embrassing/

Thanks for the info, but just so you know we had a thread on the game at launch with plenty of people posting their experience and problems. I'm pretty sure i posted my benches and experience playing in there if you want to check it out... from what i remember it wasn't that bad for everyone and unless you think i used a time machine and went back on time and doctored my posts and everyone else's, you'll note that issues varied highly user- to- user and hitting 10fps definitely want the norm, i don't remember that ever being the case for me. Biggest issues from my experience was that it wouldn't maintain 60fps consistently and random things made it drop... not to 10fps.

I definitely didn't have the best card at the time, but i definitely didn't have it go to 10fps even with everything on IIRC. Comparing it to PS4 version, if i locked to PS4s 30fps, i could max out damn near everything besides the broken Nvidia smoke effect IIRC.

Also worth pointing out that the majority of bugs were tackled with patches shortly after launch. Most that mattered were taken care of well before the game was pulled.

To the point though, pointing to one majorly f***ed up game on PC, like it's the norm or something, then trying to push the idea that you need monster rigs to run games is either incredibly disingenuous or you just don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Kerosene31]

Thanks for the info, but just so you know we had a thread on the game at launch with plenty of people posting their experience and problems. I'm pretty sure i posted my benches and experience playing in there if you want to check it out... from what i remember it wasn't that bad for everyone and unless you think i used a time machine abs went back on time and doctored my pays and everyone else's, you'll note that issues varied highly user- to- user.

I definitely didn't have the best card at the time, but i definitely didn't have it go to 10fps even with everything on IIRC.

Also worth pointing out that the majority of bugs were tackled with patches shortly after launch. Most that mattered were taken care of well before the game was pulled.

To the point though, pointing to one majorly f***ed up game on PC, like it's the norm or something, then trying to push the idea that you need monster rids to run games is either incredibly disingenuous or you just don't know what you're talking about.

I never said it was the norm, but it happens. I know lots of PC gamers who complain about the "lousy console ports". Of course these games are far from broken, but the point is development time matters and game companies make shortcuts.

This goes back to COD1 which I played on PC. The sys requirements were steep yet the game didn't look better than others with lower specs.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/pc-ports-are-consistently-shoddy-and-its-embrassing/

http://www.pcgamer.com/stop-making-horrible-console-ports-a-guide/

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/2vr7ek/does_anyone_know_of_a_list_of_bad_console_ports/

 

[Kassen]

Some are. Some aren't. Not sure why you'd make such a blanket statement.

"Some" being "that Batman game." What else?

 

[pravus]

I never said it was the norm, but it happens. I know lots of PC gamers who complain about the "lousy console ports". Of course these games are far from broken, but the point is development time matters and game companies make shortcuts.

This goes back to COD1 which I played on PC. The sys requirements were steep yet the game didn't look better than others with lower specs.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/pc-ports-are-consistently-shoddy-and-its-embrassing/

http://www.pcgamer.com/stop-making-horrible-console-ports-a-guide/

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/2vr7ek/does_anyone_know_of_a_list_of_bad_console_ports/

If i want to talk about the quality of console ports, i don't immediately point to Skyrim PS3 or Broforce PS4, then throw my hands up like it's a valid or even relevant point. Broken ports aren't the norm and to suggest otherwise is hyperbole at your best stance.

 

[Kerosene31]

I think we'll agree to disagree, especially since you are strawmaning my points. Funny how touchy PC gaming is.

I think we'll see longer dev times, more DLC, and more launch bugs and poor ports with Neo. Either that or just nobody takes much advantage and the Neo only sees a few games that perform much better.

 

[pravus]

I think we'll agree to disagree, especially since you are strawmaning my points. Funny how touchy PC gaming is.

I think we'll see longer dev times, more DLC, and more launch bugs and poor ports with Neo. Either that or just nobody takes much advantage and the Neo only sees a few games that perform much better.

I apologize for the blatant misrepresentation and exaggeration of your hyperbole.

I'm man enough to say it... my bad.

On the actual topic though, clearly a tiny bit more dev time for multiplats.. but you aren't going to feel that as a consumer, it'll equal more man hours working on the project or more hands on deck. Luckily consoles and PC are only getting more similar in architecture... there isn't any technological rift separating the two like there was in the past.

For the most part, I'm expecting better frame rate, standardized resolution, better image quality for multiplats, nothing mind blowing... exclusives will be where we might see the biggest differences.

 

[Kassen]

I think we'll agree to disagree, especially since you are strawmaning my points. Funny how touchy PC gaming is.

I think we'll see longer dev times, more DLC, and more launch bugs and poor ports with Neo. Either that or just nobody takes much advantage and the Neo only sees a few games that perform much better.

You made your example the strawman, not anyone else. You mentioned one very particular game that is an unprecedented one-of-a-kind example to describe thousands of other games that clearly aren't even comparable to what happened with Arkham Knight. And you couldn't even mention a second game. That is precisely the best example of a strawman's argument you could ever find. And then if you are also going to use this one game as an example for why PS4 having just one more hardware configuration is comparable to the thousands of PC configurations in existence, then you have the strawman of the strawman of the strawman.

 

[TeKPhaN]

That is very true, but a LOT of PC games have awful optimization. PC games sometimes have crazy system specs, way beyond the console version.
PC gamers just throw a big enough rig at a game and it runs fine. Console games need a lot more optimization not to run like poo.

There have been at least a few games that ran fine on consoles but didn't on PC. That Batman game comes to mind and another big one that I can't think of.

Sure sometimes we get bad ports but usually they fix the issues or somebody else finds fixes.
Some times things are exaggerated as Batman AK always ran better with both video cards I tested it with and according to friends who have the game only one had performance issues but he was running it with a i5/580.
Oh and when I say ran better...I am talking almost generational difference in visuals/performance between it and the PS4 version(my son owns it/the BM themed PS4) So don't believe everything you hear

 

[Kerosene31]

Sure sometimes we get bad ports but usually they fix the issues or somebody else finds fixes.
Some times things are exaggerated as Batman AK always ran better with both video cards I tested it with and according to friends who have the game only one had performance issues but he was running it with a i5/580.
Oh and when I say ran better...I am talking almost generational difference in visuals/performance between it and the PS4 version(my son owns it/the BM themed PS4) So don't believe everything you hear

Of course the issues get fixed, but that's more dev time, more buggy releases.

People have this entitlement belief that companies will just give them all they want with no added costs. I'm the only one seeing buggy launches though so I guess that's good?

Consumers will want more. Publishers will want more. Neither will want to pay for more.

Everyone is just saying adding 2 more platforms is no big deal. It might not be a huge problem, but this is how game devs are worked now:

In February of 2011, fresh off nine months of 80-hour work weeks, Jessica Chavez took a pair of scissors to her hair. She’d been working so hard on a video game—14 hours a day, six days a week—that she hadn’t even had a spare hour to go to the barber.


As soon as the overtime came to an end, so did 18 inches of hair. “[It was] retaliation for the headaches the weight of it had given me while working,” she’d later tell me. “It got so heavy… it was unbearable after a while.”

http://kotaku.com/crunch-time-why-game-developers-work-such-insane-hours-1704744577#ifrndnloc

 

[TeKPhaN]

Of course the issues get fixed, but that's more dev time, more buggy releases.

People have this entitlement belief that companies will just give them all they want with no added costs. I'm the only one seeing buggy launches though so I guess that's good?

Consumers will want more. Publishers will want more. Neither will want to pay for more.

Everyone is just saying adding 2 more platforms is no big deal. It might not be a huge problem, but this is how game devs are worked now:



http://kotaku.com/crunch-time-why-game-developers-work-such-insane-hours-1704744577#ifrndnloc

d00d this gen has been full of issues with its games across the board ie consoles and pc so these buggy launches affect every consumer. This has nothing to do with the amount of formats its more in line with dev time allowed by the PUBLISHERS.
Also Sometimes on the PC front a piss poor company works on the PC port this is true.

 

[Kerosene31]

d00d this gen has been full of issues with its games across the board ie consoles and pc so these buggy launches affect every consumer. This has nothing to do with the amount of formats its more in line with dev time allowed by the PUBLISHERS.
Also Sometimes on the PC front a piss poor company works on the PC port this is true.

Yes! That's the problem. Can publishers add programmers and support more platforms? Of course. It takes time and money. (or a lot of money and a little time).

I'm not saying it can't be done, but for whatever reason they are already stretched thin.

My fear is they just dev for the lower consoles and be done.

 

[kb]

Yes! That's the problem. Can publishers add programmers and support more platforms? Of course. It takes time and money. (or a lot of money and a little time).

I'm not saying it can't be done, but for whatever reason they are already stretched thin.

My fear is they just dev for the lower consoles and be done.

They are already stretched thin because publishers are demanding next gen triple AAA games for last gen triple AAA budgets and time frames. Programmers and art people for games don't magically increase in speed and every new generation adds more and more complexity and more and more effort just to get something out the door that starts let alone runs well.

 

[Kassen]

d00d this gen has been full of issues with its games across the board ie consoles and pc so these buggy launches affect every consumer. This has nothing to do with the amount of formats its more in line with dev time allowed by the PUBLISHERS.
Also Sometimes on the PC front a piss poor company works on the PC port this is true.

Yeah, the optimization has little to do with the multiple configurations of PC and more to do with lazy console ports. But it still remains unchanged that the majority of PC games are well optimized. A one-off example of a single does not warrant any valid argument against this fact in the least bit.