Lockhart is still on its way

JinCA

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MS has a history of trying to tell us what we want vs giving us what we want, who has been asking to play a console game on a phone? the experience is so much worse that way, even if you could get high quality streaming everywhere which is not anywhere near a reality right now the experience would still be so much worse. Mobile games are different for a reason and hooking a controller to a 6 inch screen isn't the same thing as having a console hooked up to a 50+ inch 4K tv. I love how people keep focusing on the mobile aspect yet nobody is even close to pulling that off yet and the infrastructure needed to make that a viable option may take over a decade to become a reality.

Remember how MS and others were trying to push the 2nd screen experience so hard a few years ago? NOBODY cared, nobody wanted it and it was a stupid idea, why would you want to constantly take your eyes off of your tv, put down your controller and check things on a phone? Hell Nintendo created a console around that philosophy and it bombed hard.
 
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pravus

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Even Matt (the mod) was telling them its basically nothing in the grand scheme and they just aren't having it, lol. There is something about lockhart specifically that's bad, but hundreds of other hardware configurations that are taken into account are fine. Even saw one guy say you can't compare it to how it works on PC... even though all of MSs first party titles and basically every single third party ever will also be on PC.
 

JinCA

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Even Matt (the mod) was telling them its basically nothing in the grand scheme and they just aren't having it, lol. There is something about lockhart specifically that's bad, but hundreds of other hardware configurations that are taken into account are fine. Even saw one guy say you can't compare it to how it works on PC... even though all of MSs first party titles and basically every single third party ever will also be on PC.
Yeah this was his post, I don't think anyone here is overly worried about it (resetera is another story, that forum gets overly dramatic pretty quickly) but still to some of us it just doesn't make much sense.

Everyone needs to cool it.

Some developers expressed some concerns. That doesn't mean next-gen is ruined or limited, MS doesn't want that and wouldn't be perhaps going down this path if that was believed to be a serious possibility.

Next-gen is looking great, OK? This news doesn't change that.

Be excited. I know I am
 

The Living Tribunal

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....a big nothing burger.

More people buy RTX 2060s than 2080tis, and all I hear from 2080ti owners is.."hurr durrr... MA GAM3S AR3 B3ING H3LD BACK!!"

Said no one ever.

Also, alot of you guys who have an issue with this approach are looking at it through a Sony or Nintendo lens.

This particular strategy will (possibly) work better for the Xbox Brand BECAUSE they aren't Sony or Nintendo. People are comparing Sony with Microsoft as if they both have the same brand power when it comes to gaming.
One company needs to formulate a better strategy and the other could just sit on its laurels and ride to victory with ease.
This seems like a strategy that Microsoft feels it needs to employ to be more competitive next gen..if you agree or not it is up to the gaming public to decide.
Wrap your head around that statement before condemning the strategy and remember all these console developers are not going into next gen with the same advantages as each other. Just like in war new strategies need to be developed to stay lethal.
 
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Frozpot

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They've been saying again that they don't plan on leaving older consoles behind, so if they are going to keep up cross-gen for a long time what's the point of two next gen sku's? I'm sure 3rd parties are going to love having to try to optimize their games for 4 different xbox consoles.
I do agree with this. If you already support weaker machines, I don't get why not just push the one new sku. I say this not having the whole picture though.

If Lockhart is substantially cheaper or will be manufactured instead of selling new, old skus, I can see it. It may help cut manufacturing costs if it shares components with the higher end machine.
 

JinCA

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....a big nothing burger.

More people buy RTX 2060s than 2080tis, and all I hear from 2080ti owners is.."hurr durrr... MA GAM3S AR3 B3ING H3LD BACK!!"

Said no one ever.

Also, alot of you guys who have an issue with this approach are looking at it through a Sony or Nintendo lens.

This particular strategy will (possibly) work better for the Xbox Brand BECAUSE they aren't Sony or Nintendo. People are comparing Sony with Microsoft as if they both have the same brand power when it comes to gaming.
One company needs to formulate a better strategy and the other could just sit on its laurels and ride to victory with ease.
This seems like a strategy that Microsoft feels it needs to employ to be more competitive next gen..if you agree or not it is up to the gaming public to decide.
Wrap your head around that statement before condemning the strategy and remember all these console developers are not going into next gen with the same advantages as each other. Just like in war new strategies need to be developed to stay lethal.
I get that and I've tried to understand how MS thinks this will be a great differentiator, I just don't see how it will be. Games will be what ends up moving things long term, these are gaming consoles before anything else and both Scarlett and the PS5 will be close enough in power than any "bragging rights" will be meaningless regardless of who's more powerful so it's going to come down to games. Does anyone believe a casual fan is going to buy a lesser "next gen" machine over a One S or One X if they get that at an even lower price and MS keeps saying they'll continue to release all games on all xbox consoles? what's the point? 60fps? casual gamers don't care or really even know about that kind of thing.

You are right, MS does need to do something to stand out from the pack and I don't blame them for thinking outside of the box but I just don't think offering a true next gen machine and a half step machine at the same time will really be all that beneficial.
 

Rollins

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Just like in war new strategies need to be developed to stay lethal.
Well said. And in this time period especially, they have to try and predict the future, because it looks like things could be shifting a lot.

I don’t think Sony or Nintendo will ever have a problem, even if they just keep doing what they’ve been doing.

Like you said, MS needs to have a better strategy, and from what they’ve shown so far, their vision seems to be pretty aggressive:

Give as many options as possible to allow as many people as possible to play games in the ecosystem whenever they feel like it.

This coming gen will be very interesting.
 
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The Living Tribunal

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I get that and I've tried to understand how MS thinks this will be a great differentiator, I just don't see how it will be. Games will be what ends up moving things long term, these are gaming consoles before anything else and both Scarlett and the PS5 will be close enough in power than any "bragging rights" will be meaningless regardless of who's more powerful so it's going to come down to games. Does anyone believe a casual fan is going to buy a lesser "next gen" machine over a One S or One X if they get that at an even lower price and MS keeps saying they'll continue to release all games on all xbox consoles? what's the point? 60fps? casual gamers don't care or really even know about that kind of thing.

You are right, MS does need to do something to stand out from the pack and I don't blame them for thinking outside of the box but I just don't think offering a true next gen machine and a half step machine at the same time will really be all that beneficial.
Now I'm not picking on you Jin, but if you disagree with Microsoft's approach what are your solutions to their problem?
On the one hand it seems people want them to maintain the status quo by releasing one powerful system (just like Sony is) and then rely heavily upon games to drive sales.
For Microsoft (again NOT SONY OR NINTENDO) this approach helps but not to the extent as it does the other two console makers (who traditionally have stronger 1st and 2nd party game offerings to drive sales.)
So what other options do the folks that disagree with Microsoft's approach think would work?

The writing is on the wall and most logical gamers know Microsoft will need to bring the games AND MORE next gen to be competitive. That is just the way it is. If you want Microsoft to do the same thing as Sony and only have a single strong console and QUALITY 1st party games and HOPE both the Xbox Scarlet and PS5 are massively successful you are dreaming.
Sony would win that battle and it isn't changing for at least the next generation (until Microsoft gets its 1st party developers to top tier status.) Just the way it is.
From a purely business perspective it makes sense what Microsoft is doing and why Sony is not.
 
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JinCA

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Now I'm not picking on you Jin, but if you disagree with Microsoft's approach what are your solutions to their problem?
On the one hand it seems people want them to maintain the status quo by releasing one powerful system (just like Sony is) and then rely heavily upon games to drive sales.
For Microsoft (again NOT SONY OR NINTENDO) this approach helps but not to the extent as it does the other two console makers (who traditionally have stronger 1st and 2nd party game offerings to drive sales.)
So what other options do the folks that disagree with Microsoft's approach think would work?

The writing is on the wall and most logical gamers know Microsoft will need to bring the games AND MORE next gen to be competitive. That is just the way it is. If you want Microsoft to do the same thing as Sony and only have a single strong console and QUALITY 1st party games and HOPE both the Xbox Scarlet and PS5 are massively successful you are dreaming.
Sony would win that battle and it isn't changing for at least the next generation (until Microsoft gets its 1st party developers to top tier status.) Just the way it is.
From a purely business perspective it makes sense what Microsoft is doing and why Sony is not.
Honestly Xbox is always going to be a 2nd or 3rd place machine because they don't have the global appeal that Sony or Nintendo do, they've gone through 3 generations now where they didn't make any real progress in any markets outside of North America and the UK. They can still be successful without being #1 no doubt about it, as long as they turn a profit that's all that matters. Of course to do that they'll want to tie people into their ecosystem for as long as possible and digital game sales and backwards compatibility with current gen are likely going to keep both Xbox and PlayStation fans locked in for next gen.

I'm not sure what they can do to stand out other than try a lot harder with the games they offer, they've been pretty bad overall this gen and while they have picked up a lot of developers it's not like many of them are known for making big AAA games but hopefully with the resources they'll likely have now that will change. At the end of the day they need a new halo, something big that people just have to play because their older IP's are waning in popularity and they haven't found anything else to take their place.
 

The Living Tribunal

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What if Lockhart is spec matched to the PS5 and Scarlet is still above that?

I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to do something along those lines. If this is true and Lockhart has the same GPU but with less available memory and a slower CPU that would STILL mean the basics of the Xbox consoles would be exact. No porting down or wasted power. Pretty much PS4 to PS4 Pro situation and not Xbox One to OneX situation.
IMHO would be a smart move.
 

hrudey

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It may help cut manufacturing costs if it shares components with the higher end machine.
My ongoing theory is that the SOC part of the dev kit, anaconda and Lockhart are identical, just binned so that chips with all gpu cores functional are dev kits, ones that are not quite good enough yields for anaconda get put in Lockhart. That allows them to have just one fabrication spec and allows them to have less waste.
 
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Bgamer90

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It’s been a while. Nice to see you guys. :)

I‘ll need to see more details, but overall this current shift in multiple SKUs and games being played on multiple devices makes a lot of sense to me.

$400-$500 consoles every 5 years with no compatibility for developers to scale & bring games to other platforms simply isn’t sustainable. Look at the libraries of the Xbox One and PS4. Take away all of the multiplats and/or games that are available to play on PC. The number of true exclusives are FAR less than both system’s predecessors. This upcoming shift is honestly pretty logical.

I was thinking about the 2000s for gaming due to PlayStation’s 25th anniversary blogs. That decade had 3+ entries in various non-yearly AAA franchises, with some being all within one gaming generation. These days we’re fortunate to get just one entry during a gen; And two entries during a gen? Rare and/or highly unlikely.

I see some mentioning “developers being held back...”—the thing with this though is that AAA game developers have to be held back in some way due to how expensive it is for AAA games to be made these days. So in terms of this topic, it’s a AAA game needing to be laid out well in order to scale it to other platforms —OR— a AAA game that’s only for an expensive system with a low(er) userbase, thus creating a situation in which a developer has to “play it safe” and take fewer creative risks for financial reasons. I personally think the former is better for getting more game releases on a regular basis; especially since improved visuals and performance will happen either way, and this is something that a large portion of console gamers (the majority?) want when buying a new console. I think the most creative/fresh console brand exclusives this decade have come from Nintendo anyway—regardless of Nintendo never having the most powerful hardware. That’s me though.

More people playing games is the safest way to get more made. I hated seeing multiple new exclusive AAA IPs that released in 2013-2015 become “one & dones” in part because they were only for $400+ consoles with low(er) userbases. That caused less variety in the libraries of both the Xbox One and PS4. Things should be different this time around though thanks to scalability and compatibility.

Now in terms of where the Lockhart fits into this, I think there are many that can’t afford a $500 console, but would love to be a part of “next gen buzz” and play games that still look far better than what they play on their current console(s) to not feel left out. It’s like what we see with phones... Some people can’t afford the most expensive iPhone model, but they still want to be a part of “new iPhone buzz” and get a phone that‘s better than what they already have. Hence why these people get the standard versions of new iPhones instead of the top of the line model. Lockhart could be an ideal console for this audience. I could see the breakdown being like this...

Xbox One S (& all digital): $99-$149
Xbox Lockhart: $349
Xbox Scarlett: $499

Those prices would almost speak for themselves in getting people to know the differences between each model. Xbox One S for people that just want a dirt cheap box to play games casually, Lockhart for the more core gamers that want an upgrade from the console(s) they are currently playing on, and Scarlett for the hardcore gamers that want the “best of the best”. Alongside of this, I personally can’t see Sony ever releasing a PlayStation SKU without a disc drive. Lockhart opens the door for Microsoft to have a brand new Xbox system/SKU that’s a cheaper price than what the PS5 will be right when both consoles launch. We’ll see how it all plays out. I’ll be getting both the PS5 and the new Xbox—very pumped for 2020. 👍
 
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SpartanDawgX1

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I think Lockhart is a deliberate miss information campaign designed to cause confusion. A “next gen” 1440p box doesn’t make much sense when a mostly 4k box already exists in the Xbox One X. Plus the idea of announcing consoles a year plus out is done to provide transparency for buyers. At least that was the reasoning Phil Spencer had for the One X announcement which they followed again with Scarlet.
 

Bgamer90

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I think Lockhart is a deliberate miss information campaign designed to cause confusion. A “next gen” 1440p box doesn’t make much sense when a mostly 4k box already exists in the Xbox One X. Plus the idea of announcing consoles a year plus out is done to provide transparency for buyers. At least that was the reasoning Phil Spencer had for the One X announcement which they followed again with Scarlet.
It would more than likely be 1440p for 60 FPS games/settings and full 4K for 30 FPS games; This is alongside the huge benefits of SSD.
 

karmakid

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Jason Schreier weighs in on next-gen via kotaku podcast
  • Repeats the disinterest from developers for lockhart. Says it will have significantly less ram and has heard developers saying the GPU is basically PS4 Pro level, but the CPU and SSD should improve it beyond that. Still, developers dont want to be forced to work on lockhart and feel that the SKU will hamper next gen games.
  • Says that he has heard of Sony's launch games for PS5, and that they are PS5 only. Will probably make an article about it in the future
  • Didnt hear about MS's games, but assume they will target Xbox One, PC and Scarlett, like Halo Infinite is confirmed to be.
  • One last thing he said, and he says to take it with a big grain of salt, but he said that PS5 and Anaconda have GPUs better than "graphics cards like the RTX 2080 that is currently on the market". But again, BIG grain of salt on that statement, and not nearly definitive enough to make articles on. "A lot of positive buzz on the power of these two consoles" is what he heard from devs
 

Bgamer90

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Jason Schreier weighs in on next-gen via kotaku podcast
  • Repeats the disinterest from developers for lockhart. Says it will have significantly less ram and has heard developers saying the GPU is basically PS4 Pro level, but the CPU and SSD should improve it beyond that. Still, developers dont want to be forced to work on lockhart and feel that the SKU will hamper next gen games.
  • Says that he has heard of Sony's launch games for PS5, and that they are PS5 only. Will probably make an article about it in the future
  • Didnt hear about MS's games, but assume they will target Xbox One, PC and Scarlett, like Halo Infinite is confirmed to be.
  • One last thing he said, and he says to take it with a big grain of salt, but he said that PS5 and Anaconda have GPUs better than "graphics cards like the RTX 2080 that is currently on the market". But again, BIG grain of salt on that statement, and not nearly definitive enough to make articles on. "A lot of positive buzz on the power of these two consoles" is what he heard from devs
I would be surprised if the PS5 gets a big first party AAA true exclusive in 2020. I think any 2020 PS5 exclusive will be in a similar area to Knack for the PS4... lower scale and budget. Building up the PS5’s userbase via cross-gen Playstation exclusives & multiplats and then release big AAA true PS5 exclusives makes far more financial sense to me if we truly want to see new AAA IPs turn into series and not be “one and dones” as I said in my previous post. We’ll see though.

I’m sure some devs don’t like Lockhart—but I would assume that most of them that don’t are devs that make games for consoles only considering it should be easy to just bring a game over to Lockhart via scaling if that game is already being made for PCs. Got to be far easier than Nintendo Switch for obvious reasons and I would say that the Switch has at least another three years of life left before we’ll see its successor.
 
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karmakid

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I would be surprised if the PS5 gets a big first party AAA true exclusive in 2020. I think any 2020 PS5 exclusive will be in a similar area to Knack for the PS4... lower scale and budget. Building up the PS5’s userbase via cross-gen Playstation exclusives & multiplats and then release big AAA true PS5 exclusives makes far more financial sense to me if we truly want to see new AAA IPs turn into series and not be “one and dones” as I said in my previous post. We’ll see though.

I’m sure some devs don’t like Lockhart—but I would assume that most of them that don’t are devs that make games for consoles only considering it should be easy to just bring a game over to Lockhart via scaling if that game is already being made for PCs. Got to be far easier than Nintendo Switch for obvious reasons and I would say that the Switch has at least another three years of life left before we’ll see its successor.
What about the cases where a dev develops a great game for console but it’s pc variant is handled by another dev...I don’t know where I’m going with this, I had something but it fluttered away, I should be asleep 😆 good night peeps
 
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Bgamer90

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What about the cases where a dev develops a great game for console but it’s pc variant is handled by another dev...I don’t know where I’m going with this, I had something but it fluttered away, I should be asleep 😆 good night peeps
I usually think about a lot of “what ifs” late at night too as someone that likes work on projects a lot and brainstorm haha.

All upcoming consoles will basically be PCs. I would guess in a situation like what you’ve stated, that dev handling the PC version will just port things over. The tools used for the Xbox One X’s compatibly with 360 and original Xbox games will more than likely end up being used for next gen Xbox games. Many 360 and original Xbox games look amazing on the Xbox One X—and these games weren’t made with the Xbox One X in mind considering they released many years before the Xbox One X released.

Xbox One X’s scaling/compatibility seemed to be a test of Microsoft’s future plans the more that I think about it.
 

timmy-boy

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I would be surprised if the PS5 gets a big first party AAA true exclusive in 2020. I think any 2020 PS5 exclusive will be in a similar area to Knack for the PS4... lower scale and budget. Building up the PS5’s userbase via cross-gen Playstation exclusives & multiplats and then release big AAA true PS5 exclusives makes far more financial sense to me if we truly want to see new AAA IPs turn into series and not be “one and dones” as I said in my previous post. We’ll see though.

I’m sure some devs don’t like Lockhart—but I would assume that most of them that don’t are devs that make games for consoles only considering it should be easy to just bring a game over to Lockhart via scaling if that game is already being made for PCs. Got to be far easier than Nintendo Switch for obvious reasons and I would say that the Switch has at least another three years of life left before we’ll see its successor.
Nope you won't get a game like Knack again, all indications from Japan Studio is they are going for more ambitious games. Bluepoint, Insomniac and Japan Studio should all have something ready for PS5 launch.
 

Bgamer90

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Nope you won't get a game like Knack again, all indications from Japan Studio is they are going for more ambitious games. Bluepoint, Insomniac and Japan Studio should all have something ready for PS5 launch.
If this is the case and many of these games will be new IPs then these new IPs are going to have a really high chance of being “one and dones”. We had multiple “one and dones” with the PS4, and the PS4 came during a time in which people were starving for a new console after 7-8 years of 2006 spec consoles.

All signs are pointing to the consumer PS4 -> PS5 transition being slower than PS3 -> PS4. It would make more sense to either save those games for the second or third year of the PS5’s life when the system has a sizable userbase, or simply make them available on PS4 too (and have them be enhanced on PS5 thanks to the PS5’s PC-like build and compatibility) so that the games have a higher chance at getting the support they need to be successful. I would find that better instead of risky, early true exclusivity just for the sake of “you can only find it here!”-new console advertising.
 
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karmakid

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Nope you won't get a game like Knack again, all indications from Japan Studio is they are going for more ambitious games. Bluepoint, Insomniac and Japan Studio should all have something ready for PS5 launch.
Wasn’t Knack a Sony Santa Monica, or that team in Santa Monica that works on R&D stuff for other 1st party studios?
 

VaLLiancE

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If this is the case and many of these games will be new IPs then these new IPs are going to have a really high chance of being “one and dones”. We had multiple “one and dones” with the PS4, and the PS4 came during a time in which people were starving for a new console after 7-8 years of 2006 spec consoles.

All signs are pointing to the consumer PS4 -> PS5 transition being slower than PS3 -> PS4. It would make more sense to either save those games for the second or third year of the PS5’s life when the system has a sizable userbase, or simply make them available on PS4 too (and have them be enhanced on PS5 thanks to the PS5’s PC-like build and compatibility) so that the games have a higher chance at getting the support they need to be successful. I would find that better instead of risky, early true exclusivity just for the sake of “you can only find it here!”-new console advertising.
This guy
 

timmy-boy

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If this is the case and many of these games will be new IPs then these new IPs are going to have a really high chance of being “one and dones”. We had multiple “one and dones” with the PS4, and the PS4 came during a time in which people were starving for a new console after 7-8 years of 2006 spec consoles.

All signs are pointing to the consumer PS4 -> PS5 transition being slower than PS3 -> PS4. It would make more sense to either save those games for the second or third year of the PS5’s life when the system has a sizable userbase, or simply make them available on PS4 too (and have them be enhanced on PS5 thanks to the PS5’s PC-like build and compatibility) so that the games have a higher chance at getting the support they need to be successful. I would find that better instead of risky, early true exclusivity just for the sake of “you can only find it here!”-new console advertising.
Quite a few games that were meant to be cross-gen got moved to PS5. I remember Zhuge saying last year they have unnaounced games based on franchises but due to the lack of announcements they're either cross-gen or PS5. Sony obviously made the decision to have them moved to PS5.
Wasn’t Knack a Sony Santa Monica, or that team in Santa Monica that works on R&D stuff for other 1st party studios?
Nope it was SIE Japan Studio.
 

Nervusbreakdown

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Why would Lockhart have a PS4 Pro level GPU when the X already has a better GPU?
I am with you on this.
That makes no sense. Changing the CPU and keep the same GPU for the low level system will make a huge difference for a low level price.
 
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