PS5 Official Thread

hrudey

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I've been saying this for the longest. It's like people just aren't getting it for some reason -- perhaps due to the architecture being revolutionary. In Mark Cerny's speech The Road to PS5, right around 10:00 to 10:28 he talks about what he wanted from an SSD. Load times isn't the main reason he wanted the SSD. The MAIN reason he wanted the SSD was for streaming purposes, and not just any type of stream. The time frame of that video is where he talks about how fast he wanted that streaming to take place while in the game. PS5'S SSD was designed to stream textures (over 4GBs) in .27 secs, or as fast as you could turn your characters head inside the game.
For that to work and an equivalent using MS' "half" speed drive, each "environment" you play in needs to be 8 GB (assuming it's a 180 degree turn) or 16 GB (if 90 degrees). That would mean that you could have a total of 7 playable areas with no additional game code whatsoever and already be using 56 GB of SSD space. But the thing is, no developer in their right mind would stream the whole area in every time you turn your head, when all of that data fits neatly into RAM which is a *LOT* faster to access. Area transitions, loading, sure, but if you're playing a game, you've likely got NPCs or AI enemies or possibly other players in the environment, which you can't run from SSD.

In fact, the PS5'S SSD RAM is faster than the memory in the PS5, which leaves me to believe that Sony was planning on using the SSD's speedy virtual RAM to make up for the slower RAM in the system to tackle bigger tasks.
The max raw speed available from SSD is 5.5 GB/s.. The PS3 memory bandwith was over 40 GB/s, and PS5 is 448 GB/s. So RAM is roughly 80 times faster than SSD.

I honestly don't think Microsoft took this into consideration -- loading game textures on the fly or in the middle of you moving around in the game with the SSD, but more so using the SSD, first and foremost, for faster load times between level and for when you are going to potentially pass from one point of the game to the other.
"Hey, we have this pool of memory available that we can stick 8GB of environment data in and then transfer it to GPU in roughly 20ms, but let's instead stick it on SSD and pull it to the GPU in something over a second."

But if you listen to Sweeney in his interview, he tells you exactly what that SSD was actually streaming, and it wasn't just the flying scene. It was too fast for the RAM in the system to keep up.

So like I've been trying to say, that demo can be ran on other systems, but at what cost is the question. If that demo was SSD intense, maybe I'm missing something, but I'd like to know how any slower SSD could keep up by running the same tasks without maxing itself out. But now i am also wondering if Microsoft's SSD is built like the SSDs that Mark Cerny described (being 100x fast than pass gen consoles but after going through the whole process of reading that data, it ends up being 2x the speed once you start running into all the bottlenecks he talked about).
You're missing the fundamental thing - you don't constantly load 4GB levels every time you turn around, and you need memory to keep anything actually important to gameplay resident. Streaming textures is not something you do on the order of Gigabytes - because game installs aren't terabytes. The 5.5 GB/sec is going to be *great* when you're loading a game, when you need to re-load an environment after death, but there's no gameplay merit to leading 10% of your installed assets every second of game play.
 

Shawn Jelsic

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For that to work and an equivalent using MS' "half" speed drive, each "environment" you play in needs to be 8 GB (assuming it's a 180 degree turn) or 16 GB (if 90 degrees). That would mean that you could have a total of 7 playable areas with no additional game code whatsoever and already be using 56 GB of SSD space. But the thing is, no developer in their right mind would stream the whole area in every time you turn your head, when all of that data fits neatly into RAM which is a *LOT* faster to access. Area transitions, loading, sure, but if you're playing a game, you've likely got NPCs or AI enemies or possibly other players in the environment, which you can't run from SSD.
I'm not saying whole or even half levels could be ran from an SSD. Based on what he was saying in his speech, (you should check it out) he wants the SSD to stream gaming assets on the fly, right in the middle of gameplay. Obviously, it must not be that impossible otherwise he never would have stated the fact nor achieved this during testing. I see too many times where people try to break this down and put a spin on it in their own individual way but what's taking place on screen tells a different story.


The max raw speed available from SSD is 5.5 GB/s.. The PS3 memory bandwith was over 40 GB/s, and PS5 is 448 GB/s. So RAM is roughly 80 times faster than SSD.
That's my mistake. He said that it wasn't practical for the memory in system, so streaming is key, which the SSD does quite well from his experience.

"Hey, we have this pool of memory available that we can stick 8GB of environment data in and then transfer it to GPU in roughly 20ms, but let's instead stick it on SSD and pull it to the GPU in something over a second."
Except for the fact that we can clearly see the speed of these two drives. I'm simply relaying to you what I see and not what I would like. If streaming assets almost instantly was the drive's main purpose, then that explains why it is so fast right here as he talks abouy it in the very beginning of that demo.

You're missing the fundamental thing - you don't constantly load 4GB levels every time you turn around, and you need memory to keep anything actually important to gameplay resident. Streaming textures is not something you do on the order of Gigabytes - because game installs aren't terabytes. The 5.5 GB/sec is going to be *great* when you're loading a game, when you need to re-load an environment after death, but there's no gameplay merit to leading 10% of your installed assets every second of game play.
I never said you load levels. That is what you said and maybe assumed. Cerny spoke specifically of gaming textures. Sweeney spoke of this as well, and they didn’t just say this neither; they achieved it. You really need to watch Cerny's speech and read Sweeney's interview.
 
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Shawn Jelsic

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It's great that Sony finally caught up with MS and Nintendo and got a good rumble in their controllers. Now it's time to move that analogue stick.
Uh no. Microsoft is still using rumble from this generation. Their trigger motors are very limited in what they can do differently from the motors in the body of the controller, which explains why you only experience a few different feedbacks from what the larger motors can already achieve, and even then do you have to press a trigger before any activity can even take place. So, for the most part, the motors sit idle the majority of your gaming time just based on the strength of where they are. I take it, this is one of the reasons they were really never used.

Nintendo's HD motors are more advance, though -- able to mimic very subtle actions that those in the X controller's triggers can't begin to keep up with. But I would expect that from Nintendo. For one, they take a lot of risks, more so than Sony in some instances. And second, they launched the system a lot later than Both Microsoft and Sony, allowing them to more clearly observe the field. So kudles to them.

Now, the sensors in the DualSense pad are either equal or ahead of Nintendo's HD motors if it is able to create the feel of walking on ice. That requires i higher frequency. Not to mention it goes hand in hand with the adaptive triggers and the sticks. So Sony didn't just get "caught up," they surpassed the competition, creating a whole new paradigm shift.
 

Swede

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Uh no. Microsoft is still using rumble from this generation. Their trigger motors are very limited in what they can do differently from the motors in the body of the controller, which explains why you only experience a few different feedbacks from what the larger motors can already achieve, and even then do you have to press a trigger before any activity can even take place. So, for the most part, the motors sit idle the majority of your gaming time just based on the strength of where they are. I take it, this is one of the reasons they were really never used.

Nintendo's HD motors are more advance, though -- able to mimic very subtle actions that those in the X controller's triggers can't begin to keep up with. But I would expect that from Nintendo. For one, they take a lot of risks, more so than Sony in some instances. And second, they launched the system a lot later than Both Microsoft and Sony, allowing them to more clearly observe the field. So kudles to them.

Now, the sensors in the DualSense pad are either equal or ahead of Nintendo's HD motors if it is able to create the feel of walking on ice. That requires i higher frequency. Not to mention it goes hand in hand with the adaptive triggers and the sticks. So Sony didn't just get "caught up," they surpassed the competition, creating a whole new paradigm shift.
Yeah... it's good Sony finally caught up, now they just need to rearrange that analogue stick.
 

Shawn Jelsic

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Yeah... it's good Sony finally caught up, now they just need to rearrange that analogue stick.
That's more of a preference than anything. If you play a lot of shooters, it makes since to have an analog stick up top. But you forget, with Sony’s platform, they cover a lot of genres non related to shooters. To cater to all those genres, an equilibrium must be desided upon. It's kinda like the Dpad. A lot of people think the PlayStation's Dpad is so dated to the Xbox Dpad. But it's actually a strategic decision, and i can tell you from experience that simplier is better
 

Swede

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That's more of a preference than anything. If you play a lot of shooters, it makes since to have an analog stick up top. But you forget, with Sony’s platform, they cover a lot of genres non related to shooters. To cater to all those genres, an equilibrium must be desided upon. It's kinda like the Dpad. A lot of people think the PlayStation's Dpad is so dated to the Xbox Dpad. But it's actually a strategic decision, and i can tell you from experience that simplier is better
The D-pad you're correct with, the analogue stick position is inferior in every genre though.
 

VaLLiancE

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The D-pad you're correct with, the analogue stick position is inferior in every genre though.
That's opinion.... a opinion I agree with but opinion.
Not everyone agrees though and Sony does research these types of things.
I am more concerned with what looks like the same(PS4 DS4) Analog quality sticks being used and the current are cheaply made/break easily.
 

hrudey

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I'm not saying whole or even half levels could be ran from an SSD. Based on what he was saying in his speech, (you should check it out) he wants the SSD to stream gaming assets on the fly, right in the middle of gameplay. Obviously, it must not be that impossible otherwise he never would have stated the fact nor achieved this during testing. I see too many times where people try to break this down and put a spin on it in their own individual way but what's taking place on screen tells a different story.



That's my mistake. He said that it wasn't practical for the memory in system, so streaming is key, which the SSD does quite well from his experience.



Except for the fact that we can clearly see the speed of these two drives. I'm simply relaying to you what I see and not what I would like. If streaming assets almost instantly was the drive's main purpose, then that explains why it is so fast right here as he talks abouy it in the very beginning of that demo.



I never said you load levels. That is what you said and maybe assumed. Cerny spoke specifically of gaming textures. Sweeney spoke of this as well, and they didn’t just say this neither; they achieved it. You really need to watch Cerny's speech and read Sweeney's interview.
No, you need to understand that to stream 4 GB/sec of anything, you need 100 GB of install space to load from to stream unique data (i.e. not stuff you'd load into memory) for 25 seconds. You only load that much data for big levels or on startup/level transitions/fast travel/restart after death. Texture loading speed will prevent pop-in, sure, but that's not on the order of GB; that's about making sure the specific MBs you need fast get loaded fast, which is entirely separate from a massive sequential read.
 

Shawn Jelsic

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No, you need to understand that to stream 4 GB/sec of anything, you need 100 GB of install space to load from to stream unique data (i.e. not stuff you'd load into memory) for 25 seconds. You only load that much data for big levels or on startup/level transitions/fast travel/restart after death. Texture loading speed will prevent pop-in, sure, but that's not on the order of GB; that's about making sure the specific MBs you need fast get loaded fast, which is entirely separate from a massive sequential read.
So why the focal point amongst those using it, and most of all Cenry? Why the radical design?

See, while you are saying one thing, and we get this a lot, we are hearing another from those using the architecture. We are seeing these things play out. So one, either you are clearly underestimating the design or those using it are not being truthful regarding it's capability.
 

hrudey

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So why the focal point amongst those using it, and most of all Cenry? Why the radical design?

See, while you are saying one thing, and we get this a lot, we are hearing another from those using the architecture. We are seeing these things play out. So one, either you are clearly underestimating the design or those using it are not being truthful regarding it's capability.
I am saying 5.5 GB per second times 30 seconds equals 165 GB.

Do you have a source that says that they'll actually be using that full bandwidth from the SSD all the time for gameplay? No, because the math doesn't work out. It can't work out, no matter how much you want it to. But I certainly don't need a lecture on not understanding from the guy who said that the SSD was faster than the RAM. 🤣
 
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menace-uk-

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So why the focal point amongst those using it, and most of all Cenry? Why the radical design?

See, while you are saying one thing, and we get this a lot, we are hearing another from those using the architecture. We are seeing these things play out. So one, either you are clearly underestimating the design or those using it are not being truthful regarding it's capability.
I am saying 5.5 GB per second times 30 seconds equals 165 GB.

Do you have a source that says that they'll actually be using that full bandwidth from the SSD all the time for gameplay? No, because the math doesn't work out. It can't work out, no matter how much you want it to. But I certainly don't need a lecture on not understanding from the guy who said that the SSD was faster than the RAM. 🤣
All I know is, we heard from multiple sources that the SSD(assuming this goes for XSX too) will change how worlds are made and unlock traversial speed restrictions. That would be an excessive statement if all it means is a shorter bridge there and no tight path here.

How it will change we don't really know. What that means for us end users we don't really know, but after all the hyping it has be more than just faster load time and quicker environment traversal, right?
 

Shawn Jelsic

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I am saying 5.5 GB per second times 30 seconds equals 165 GB.

Do you have a source that says that they'll actually be using that full bandwidth from the SSD all the time for gameplay? No, because the math doesn't work out. It can't work out, no matter how much you want it to. But I certainly don't need a lecture on not understanding from the guy who said that the SSD was faster than the RAM. 🤣
I never said that 5.5GBs at 30 seconds. I said four at .27 secs and Cerny is saying 4GBs of compressed data at.......half of a second (your 30 secs, it seems), which is about the time it takes you to turn your head in the game. Those are HIS WORDS, not mine. Why would he even think that something like that was possible if it wasn't is what I am telling you? So either he knows something you don't or you know something he doesn't. But it is obvious that he wanted this to take place during gameplay since that seems to be his number one focus for it. So while you are saying that it's not that much of a deal, developers are calling it revolutionary; those like John Carmack, Sweeney and a few others.

And for the record, i was quoting Sweeney, not giving much thought of what was said rather than what he was saying. But of course, THAT was a misquote on my part, and I've acknowledge that and corrected this late after. Are you going to dwell on that for the sake of your argument?

So again, i can see what you believe, but what is odd is everything else after that.
 

JinCA

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Yeah... it's good Sony finally caught up, now they just need to rearrange that analogue stick.
No thanks, I like it where it is and they didn't just catch up they seemingly went beyond. I'll also add that I never notice anything being used on the X1X controller aside from standard rumble.
 
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menace-uk-

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No thanks, I like it where it is and they didn't just catch up they seemingly went beyond. I'll also add that I never notice anything being used on the X1X controller aside from standard rumble.
Forza Motorsport was the only game I played that made good use of the rumble triggers.
 
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Shawn Jelsic

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All I know is, we heard from multiple sources that the SSD(assuming this goes for XSX too) will change how worlds are made and unlock traversial speed restrictions. That would be an excessive statement if all it means is a shorter bridge there and no tight path here.

How it will change we don't really know. What that means for us end users we don't really know, but after all the hyping it has be more than just faster load time and quicker environment traversal, right?

I was typing, so i didn't get a chance to see this, but this is EXACTLY what i am saying. People not using the hardware are stating one thing (i see lots of this) and those using it are saying another. SOMEBODY has the information wrong here. Why the radical design then and why is this such a focal point to Cerny and what appears to be everyone else using it if none of this mattered?

Sure, you can come up with numbers all day long to prove a point. I saw this samething with the Cell when that was first announced, too. So I am no stranger to that. What surrounds these opinions is everything after that. That one burning question: the different design and focus. It took for the console to launch and even later on before we truely witnessed the why behind that design.
 

menace-uk-

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I was typing, so i didn't get a chance to see this, but this is EXACTLY what i am saying. People not using the hardware are stating one thing (i see lots of this) and those using it are saying another. SOMEBODY has the information wrong here. Why the radical design then and why is this such a focal point to Cerny and what appears to be everyone else using it if none of this mattered?

Sure, you can come up with numbers all day long to prove a point. I saw this samething with the Cell when that was first announced, too. So I am no stranger to that. What surrounds these opinions is everything after that. That one burning question: the different design and focus. It took for the console to launch and even later on before we truely witnessed the why behind that design.
I think the issue is capability vs practicality. It is like a hypercar, it is capable of doing 250MPH, but when is it practical to do that? Hardly ever.
 

Shawn Jelsic

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I think the issue is capability vs practicality. It is like a hypercar, it is capable of doing 250MPH, but when is it practical to do that? Hardly ever.
That is where the waiting game comes into play because it's not an easy question to answer if we're not the ones driving the car. All I know is, it is a very important part of the system where they wanted to invest most of their attention, with loading times not being the primary.
 

menace-uk-

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That is where the waiting game comes into play because it's not an easy question to answer if we're not the ones driving the car. All I know is, it is a very important part of the system where they wanted to invest most of their attention, with loading times not being the primary.
That is just it, isn't it. We all are waiting. We have seen bold claims. We have heard good things. But we still have not seen anything.

Hoping the supposed PS5 June show is very early june.
 
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Shawn Jelsic

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That is just it, isn't it. We all are waiting. We have seen bold claims. We have heard good things. But we still have not seen anything.

Hoping the supposed PS5 June show is very early june.
Well, aside from the Unreal Engine, that is. But yeah, i would agree.
 

JinCA

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Here's a piece from an interview GI did with Ed Boon today, he's basically saying the same things other devs have said about the impact of SSD's.

If what we're seeing and hearing about these capabilities is true, do you have any indication about what it would mean for players going forward?
One of the things I think people are underestimating is the impact that this theoretical no load time will have on games. A lot of games design things that some players might perceive as the boring part of the game, but it serves a function: loading. Now, the load time isn't zero, but if it goes from 10 seconds to half a second or one second, that's significant. I think that will allow people to do things that we, as in our understanding of moving data in and out of the game, when we remove that limitation that we've been kind of mentally thinking about for 15 or 20 years now, it's going to open the doors. I don't think we've seen a peek of the potential of what that's going to be.
 
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menace-uk-

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Here's a piece from an interview GI did with Ed Boon today, he's basically saying the same things other devs have said about the impact of SSD's.


But there is no context in that quote. Just vague answers, like, "it's going to open doors." Just more of the same really, lots of loading Time talk and implying big things, but without giving any indication what thosw big things are.
 
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JinCA

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But there is no context in that quote. Just vague answers, like, "it's going to open doors." Just more of the same really, lots of loading Time talk and implying big things, but without giving any indication what thosw big things are.
Yeah he's basically saying the same thing all other devs are saying, it'll likely take some time for them to really figure out what they want to do to take advantage of the speeds they'll have by default now.
 
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menace-uk-

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Yeah he's basically saying the same thing all other devs are saying, it'll likely take some time for them to really figure out what they want to do to take advantage of the speeds they'll have by default now.
But they must have some idea as to what doors it opens.