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Typical Microsoft, always early to the party lol. jk, sort of. On the cloud stuff mentioned haha.

My impression from talking to him is that Cloudgen, the company that put together the Crackdown 3 destruction demo in 2015 that now is making stuff for Unreal Engine was the real deal. I guess they took their tech with them and left Microsoft in a tough spot. Basically just because Crackdown 3's destruction didn't work out, don't assume that cloud compute doesn't work. It works enough that Epic is making sure they have the premier engine for Cloud compute.

I've also heard Ybarra and Bill Stillwell on podcasts, after moving off of Xbox, say they believe everyone will be using cloud compute in the future to do things that can't be done locally. Ybarra even threw shade at Xbox saying it wasn't going to give them a competitive advantage over Sony or anyone else because they'll all be doing it.
 
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Matt at resetera was talking about the PS5 I/O solution for the SSD, someone on neogaf put it all in one post so here you are for those interested.

I like Matt and can have respectable conversations with him at Resetera. My point has been what Froz said above. We understand there's a considerable gap. What does that additional I/O speed unlock that's not available at the Series X speed? More pop in or lower res textures in some place while traveling fast is one hypothesis...but until someone can prove that you can compute more geometry in a game with NPCs, AI, physics, etc faster than the Series X is capable of pulling from the SSD, I struggle to see it as the differentiator.

...and devs who are downplaying it likely are because it doesn't benefit them as much as compute. Massive vertical game-worlds or flying across open world maps aren't design decisions that the entire industry has been waiting for....I don't think.

I do agree with Matt that Series X is more typical. Despite the customization's, it's very intentional that whatever tools and processes you use on Series X, they will closely mirror the balance of gaming PCs. I think having an eccentric hardware balance of power on Series X would make no sense with their strategy.
 
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I like Matt and can have respectable conversations with him at Resetera. My point has been what Froz said above. We understand there's a considerable gap. What does that additional I/O speed unlock that's not available at the Series X speed? More pop in or lower res textures in some place while traveling fast is one hypothesis...but until someone can prove that you can compute more geometry in a game with NPCs, AI, physics, etc faster than the Series X is capable of pulling from the SSD, I struggle to see it as the differentiator.

...and devs who are downplaying it likely are because it doesn't benefit them as much as compute. Massive vertical game-worlds or flying across open world maps aren't design decisions that the entire industry has been waiting for....I don't think.

I do agree with Matt that Series X is more typical. Despite the customization's, it's very intentional that whatever tools and processes you use on Series X, they will closely mirror the balance of gaming PCs. I think having an eccentric hardware balance of power on Series X would make no sense with their strategy.
 
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Had a cool conversation with a dev over XBL yesterday. No breaking news or insider info. Just a perspective on stuff that's out there that he's allowed to talk about. He creates assets using UE4. In addition to working for a studio, he's been doing his own independent thing on the side.
  • SSDs are nice, will provide benefit...but it's getting a lot more hype than it should.
  • In terms of next gen advances, people are talking about the wrong things right now.
  • Next gen tools are much more powerful. The missing AA games from this gen will come back from Indie studios next gen due to the tools.
  • There's exciting next gen features that haven't been talked about yet.
  • Lumens was the thing he was most excited about from the UE demo. Said it's going to make a world of difference for developers.
  • CPUs are easily the bottleneck of next gen. While the new CPUs are a nice step up, they are still disproportionately powered compared to the rest of the systems.
  • Microsoft still hasn't released or shown any major advancements with Havok yet.
  • Believes Cloudgen (the company Epic bought who did the Crackdown demo in 2015) is going to provide some exciting things for Unreal Engine in the future especially as the industry starts to take advantage of cloud compute more often.
Interesting conversation around cloud compute. He feels that next gen game design is still bottlenecked until they move entire aspects of games to the cloud. He talked about moving AI to the cloud since the CPU jump isn't enough to handle true advances in that area while it isn't latency sensitive. He gave an example of every NPC in a game world being trained with it's own AI. When I mentioned driveators from Forza, he said it's a nice attempt but that implementation is way too basic compared to what he's talking about. True advances require a lot more compute than what's available in local machines.

Also he's the same dev that mentioned his assets jumped 4x when Epic added Quixel to Unreal. Really thinks Indies are going to shrink the graphics gap considerably relative to AAA devs next gen.

I didn't get into plastic wars conversations with him because mostly talked about tools and next gen possibilities. Overall really positive perspective from him.
Nice. I am hearing great things about the SSD and the addition of Velocity. Did he talk velocity?
 
I like Matt and can have respectable conversations with him at Resetera. My point has been what Froz said above. We understand there's a considerable gap. What does that additional I/O speed unlock that's not available at the Series X speed? More pop in or lower res textures in some place while traveling fast is one hypothesis...but until someone can prove that you can compute more geometry in a game with NPCs, AI, physics, etc faster than the Series X is capable of pulling from the SSD, I struggle to see it as the differentiator.

...and devs who are downplaying it likely are because it doesn't benefit them as much as compute. Massive vertical game-worlds or flying across open world maps aren't design decisions that the entire industry has been waiting for....I don't think.

I do agree with Matt that Series X is more typical. Despite the customization's, it's very intentional that whatever tools and processes you use on Series X, they will closely mirror the balance of gaming PCs. I think having an eccentric hardware balance of power on Series X would make no sense with their strategy.

The SSD is harder for them to explain than the typical CU's or TF's, I think they'll have to show us to prove it to us but people who think Sony spent money on that instead of the traditional areas the way MS did for no reason aren't looking at it clearly. Sony obviously saw the benefit in doing it that way, this wasn't some last minute strategy because they planned on releasing a 9TF console the way some xbots want people to believe. They had a patent for their cooling system a long time ago, Matt has said this was always Sony's plan.
 

I love how everyone seems to have info on Sony having heating issues or low yields, the same s*** was said about the PS4 and none of it was true. What game could MS have that would be a mic drop moment? they just released gears and Halo is already announced, other than Forza those are their big titles. Why are some Xbox fans so desperate to try to talk down Sony at every turn? I also doubt very much that their memory is cheaper.
 
Will the SSD be the end of the start up screen for the Xbox logo, I don’t even see the bios screen on my pc on my cheap-old hand-me-down SSD, which I’m very much appreciative
 
I love how everyone seems to have info on Sony having heating issues or low yields, the same s*** was said about the PS4 and none of it was true. What game could MS have that would be a mic drop moment? they just released gears and Halo is already announced, other than Forza those are their big titles. Why are some Xbox fans so desperate to try to talk down Sony at every turn? I also doubt very much that their memory is cheaper.

I think the price reveals will let us know how much of this is true.
 
I think the price reveals will let us know how much of this is true.

That won't really tell us anything other than they had high costs, if it's expensive and they hardly have any consoles available that's another story but there is already reporting that they are going into manufacturing this month and it'll ramp up in speed continuously until it hits full speed in August.
 
I love how everyone seems to have info on Sony having heating issues or low yields, the same s*** was said about the PS4 and none of it was true. What game could MS have that would be a mic drop moment? they just released gears and Halo is already announced, other than Forza those are their big titles. Why are some Xbox fans so desperate to try to talk down Sony at every turn? I also doubt very much that their memory is cheaper.
There is always a bunch of garbage news. It's a natural consequence of the (official) info drought and people being pinned up.

As for me on the PS5- I hope its everything they say it is, but the way some people ride that Sony shlong is so annoying it makes me want it to suck just so they finally shut up, lol.

The lead up to the reveal and how it was going to be 16TF at the high point, and like 13 at the low. Then the 10 TF fit, then latching on to the SSD like it was the return of Christ and you are a moron if you were skeptical at all that the thing wouldn't be the sole component of the future, lol.

I should just stay off GAF, lol.
 
There is always a bunch of garbage news. It's a natural consequence of the (official) info drought and people being pinned up.

As for me on the PS5- I hope its everything they say it is, but the way some people ride that Sony shlong is so annoying it makes me want it to suck just so they finally shut up, lol.

The lead up to the reveal and how it was going to be 16TF at the high point, and like 13 at the low. Then the 10 TF fit, then latching on to the SSD like it was the return of Christ and you are a moron if you were skeptical at all that the thing wouldn't be the sole component of the future, lol.

I should just stay off GAF, lol.

yeah, I remember people saying the opposite about the two...that the ps5 was gonna be at 13-16 tflops where the series x was gonna have 9-12 but with less cores but at a faster rate.... so, who knows, maybe things are true and the Xbox may come in at a really low undercutting price ;)
 
Nice. I am hearing great things about the SSD and the addition of Velocity. Did he talk velocity?

Nope. Not allowed to go into too much detail yet. Said after more is revealed, will be able to talk more. Not allowed to talk DX12U in general.

Maybe this is one reason the PS5 is easier to develop for. Sounds believable. Looking forward to all devs being able to talk more about everything.

The SSD is harder for them to explain than the typical CU's or TF's, I think they'll have to show us to prove it to us but people who think Sony spent money on that instead of the traditional areas the way MS did for no reason aren't looking at it clearly. Sony obviously saw the benefit in doing it that way, this wasn't some last minute strategy because they planned on releasing a 9TF console the way some xbots want people to believe. They had a patent for their cooling system a long time ago, Matt has said this was always Sony's plan.

Theres absolutely a benefit and reason for doing it. Their 1st party no doubt had much influence. My point/question remains the same. Whats the sweet spot in I/O speeds before diminishing returns? What does much faster brute force I/O net you over Xbox Series X Velocity that 3rd party devs can take advantage of? The Playstation SSD approach was obviously absent knowing anything about Series X approach. The Sony approach is at minimum more automatic. This brings me to the question whether Xbox's Velocity will be leveraged by 3rd party or whether its too much extra work therefore will be ignored like Esram. That's not a hypothesis or statement. I just remember Esram was supposed to be the equalizer for PS4's brute force ram advantage and never materialized and this talk sounds somewhat familiar. Questions all around.

I love how everyone seems to have info on Sony having heating issues or low yields, the same s*** was said about the PS4 and none of it was true. What game could MS have that would be a mic drop moment? they just released gears and Halo is already announced, other than Forza those are their big titles. Why are some Xbox fans so desperate to try to talk down Sony at every turn? I also doubt very much that their memory is cheaper.

That goes both ways. The negativity around Series X is pretty unbearable these days. Looking forward to both reveals so the FUD and negativity at least has less conspiracy theories baked in.

Haven't heard about a specific mic drop moment but I have heard over and over that Microsoft has invested more into content than at any other point ever.
 
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Article based on a Michael Pachter prediction? What kind of s*** journalism is that? LOL

I do believe Microsoft will try to match PS5 at the high end. If they were intent on proving the Series X was worth $100 more based on hardware alone, I feel they would've been doing more hardware advertising. Sony is likely setting the price for both consoles.
 
I love how everyone seems to have info on Sony having heating issues or low yields, the same s*** was said about the PS4 and none of it was true. What game could MS have that would be a mic drop moment? they just released gears and Halo is already announced, other than Forza those are their big titles. Why are some Xbox fans so desperate to try to talk down Sony at every turn? I also doubt very much that their memory is cheaper.

The heating and yields are probably educated guesses based on needing to find chips that survive running at that GPU frequency - one that is much higher than spec. The RAM prices I don't think makes sense - they're both buying in such volume that they're not going to have much discrepancy.
 
The SSD is harder for them to explain than the typical CU's or TF's, I think they'll have to show us to prove it to us but people who think Sony spent money on that instead of the traditional areas the way MS did for no reason aren't looking at it clearly. Sony obviously saw the benefit in doing it that way, this wasn't some last minute strategy because they planned on releasing a 9TF console the way some xbots want people to believe. They had a patent for their cooling system a long time ago, Matt has said this was always Sony's plan.

Yeah, the thought they did this as a reaction to the XSX is dumb. They were probably boxed in because of backward compatibility, though - needing to have the same number of CUs (or double) would definitely constrain what they could do with the GPU, and going with massive overclocks limits the CPU's envelope as well. So if you can't win this two numbers, what's left for the people who care about having bigger numbers?

That said, what they've talked about in the SSD is always the big number stuff- how fast it can load when you turn around, loading times, etc. I haven't seen yet what optimization or performance they have on smaller reads, which matters too. Contrast that with the MS messaging about sampler feedback and direct io updates, and MS seems to be solving problems using a more targeted approach. A contrived example might be two programs that can read the contents of a book; one can photograph a page per second, while the other takes two seconds but splits each page into individual words. If you need every page bulk loaded for printing obviously the power solution wins. If you want to find a specific word on multiple pages, to highlight or for a search, though, the single word reader is better (and more importantly doesn't require loading up a whole page worth of memory at a time). Obviously, Sony is smarter than that, and I'm sure they didn't just do the SSD as they did for loading times to the detriment of all else, but I'm curious about their random access reads and small writes, and how well it'll perform when the disk is nearly full and things aren't able to be placed in optimal locations for the controller.
 
The heating and yields are probably educated guesses based on needing to find chips that survive running at that GPU frequency - one that is much higher than spec. The RAM prices I don't think makes sense - they're both buying in such volume that they're not going to have much discrepancy.

I have no idea what volume does for price at that scale however Microsoft's front end orders are likely much larger than Sony's due to Azure/Xcloud.

Yeah, the thought they did this as a reaction to the XSX is dumb. They were probably boxed in because of backward compatibility, though - needing to have the same number of CUs (or double) would definitely constrain what they could do with the GPU, and going with massive overclocks limits the CPU's envelope as well. So if you can't win this two numbers, what's left for the people who care about having bigger numbers?

Backwards compatibility was why Sony was constrained on the CU count. It was vital for Sony to get BC right because digital libraries are a big reason that it will be difficult for Microsoft to steal back those Playstation customers. Obviously they looked for other ways to give them-self a competitive advantage. How much an advantage the better I/O gives them remains to be seen.

All this talk of compute vs I/O...I think compute will be leveraged more often than better I/O but not enough to out-shine the tools or feature sets of the consoles. When the dev told me people are talking about the wrong things (and wasn't able to be direct about why), this was my assumption based on other aspects of the conversation.
 
The heating and yields are probably educated guesses based on needing to find chips that survive running at that GPU frequency - one that is much higher than spec. The RAM prices I don't think makes sense - they're both buying in such volume that they're not going to have much discrepancy.

I think the yields and heating things are made up just so they can get clicks.
 
I think the yields and heating things are made up just so they can get clicks.

Probably. I mean, *if* one of these consoles would have yield issues or heating issues, it would be the PS5, but while I'm confident they are having lower yields than MS is getting for xsx, they're probably very close to what they projected and they wouldn't have gone this route if they couldn't get decent enough yields.
 
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Probably. I mean, *if* one of these consoles would have yield issues or heating issues, it would be the PS5, but while I'm confident they are having lower yields than MS is getting for xsx, they're probably very close to what they projected and they wouldn't have gone this route if they couldn't get decent enough yields.

While I agree there's plenty of FUD spread these days, it was one of the business magazines (outside of these Youtube and gaming message board circles) that originally said the Sony BoM was coming in higher than expected. I contrast Jim Ryan's comments of wanting a fast adoption to recent comments that PS5 might be higher than people expect. Xbox expected PS5 to come in at $400 and is part of the reason for Lockhart's existence. If PS5 comes in at $500, there will be celebration from Xbox excecs.

Xbox has an advantage with yields because they're re-purposing the silicon that doesn't meet standards to the cloud. On an accounting sheet, that means the Azure division incurs the cost and the gaming division sees minor losses. For people unaware of how corporate accounting works, each division has their own budgets and they can (and do) pass expenses or charge each other to stay within budget. I sometimes pull my hair out seeing what another division at my company bills us for help on projects. Sony's gaming division eats the entire cost when yields are low. Xbox likely does not. At least not long term as they recoup when they pass the silicon to Azure.

Either way, we should realize even if true, a lot of this can be temporary and over the life of a console, may not have much impact. Both companies will likely sell out limited stock immediately. Loss per console, if it's short term, get's diluted in the big picture among all the other costs. Sony may be launching 1st party games on PC to mitigate the losses they plan to take on consoles during the same accounting period. Both may price higher in 2020 due to limited supply and drop price when production ramps up in 2021. Let's not forget that Xbox One dropped $100 six months after launch. Even though that was related to decoupling the Kinect, from a market/consumer standpoint, there's still precedence to quickly drop prices after the launch window.

It's completely possible that these so-called "insiders" are just making predictions based off of the same facts available to all of us. Either way, it's silly to root for either company to have issues. If they're both operating on all cylinders, the can press each other into the lowest prices for all of us. Even Xbox fans should want PS5 to come in at $400. It will force Xbox to be more aggressive offering value at their launch.
 


Linus is being a little too dramatic IMHO, but it is a good turn around for him. Never quite liked his 'PC Elitist' attitude when it came to consoles. Hell I'm a PC Elitist and I usually disagreed with him on many issues when it came to comparing the two platforms.
Overall glad he made the video and owned up to his mistake.
 
Linus is being a little too dramatic IMHO, but it is a good turn around for him. Never quite liked his 'PC Elitist' attitude when it came to consoles. Hell I'm a PC Elitist and I usually disagreed with him on many issues when it came to comparing the two platforms.
Overall glad he made the video and owned up to his mistake.
Yeah I thought the apology was over the top, he didn't murder anyone. I just put it up for his explaining how he was wrong about the SSD and talked out of his ass about something he didn't have the info on. He has a lot of people who believe him when it comes to tech and I've seen him talk down 4K like it doesn't matter even though anyone with a 4K tv will tell you the difference between good 4K and good 1080p is significant. Of course he only did that because PC gamers tend to keep the res around 1400p and crank up the framerate.
 
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Very interesting times...

Guesses on pricing, COGs, yields, etc. - all seem too inconclusive and too speculative to comment...

But what we do know is that every frame the PS5 can render can be drawn faster on the Xbox Series X. Will that performance be enough to make a meaningful impact? Time will tell.

We also know the PS5 can load anything off it's SSD faster than Xbox Series X's SSD. Will that performance matter much outside of shorter loading times? Time will tell.
 
Very interesting times...

Guesses on pricing, COGs, yields, etc. - all seem too inconclusive and too speculative to comment...

But what we do know is that every frame the PS5 can render can be drawn faster on the Xbox Series X. Will that performance be enough to make a meaningful impact? Time will tell.

We also know the PS5 can load anything off it's SSD faster than Xbox Series X's SSD. Will that performance matter much outside of shorter loading times? Time will tell.


So all 3rd party games should look better on Xbox Series X but Sony first party could/will develop games not possible on the Series X? Seems like a great reason to buy both consoles to me. Can’t wait.
 
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