The 2018/2019 NBA Season Thread...

Imagine believing a teams record is a poor indicator of how good that team is.

This feels less like "clinging" and more like that Whack a Mole game kids play with smiles on their faces. You now have to deny basic common sense in order to prop Jordan up. Brave? Sure. Smart? Ehhhh...
 
You now have to deny basic common sense in order to prop Jordan up.

So, again, what is the best team in the East that Lebron beat in all of his finals appearances? It's almost like you're afraid to answer that, just like you're afraid to discuss his super team losing to Dirk freaking Nowitzki.

(Well, except for the almost part.)
 
So, again, what is the best team in the East that Lebron beat in all of his finals appearances? It's almost like you're afraid to answer that, just like you're afraid to discuss his super team losing to Dirk freaking Nowitzki.

(Well, except for the almost part.)

This should be enlightening for you...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/lebron-james-michael-jordan-nba-playoffs-finals-preview-greatest-opponents-052517?amp=true

Here's the final tally: Jordan had the harder road through the postseason five times (Years 1, 4, 5, 8, and 10), while LeBron faced tougher competition (Years 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 11, and 12) in seven postseasons.

All while playing on rosters that couldn't reach .500 without him. Easy mode vs hard mode.

Data. You can either be fearful of it, or you can choose to accept it.

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All I needed to see was playoff year 2: "So while Boston was still a formidable squad, LeBron takes Year No. 2 by virtue of leading an overmatched Cleveland team to the NBA Finals. " Which essentially says: "Jordan played the best team, but we're giving it to LeBron anyway".
 
Bulls record in 1999, 17-65 year after Jordan left. Prior year was 62-20 when Scottie Pippen missed 35 games. Jordan>>>>>>>>>Lebron
 
Are there people that really think that LeBron’s Miami team and his 2nd Cavs team we’re actually bad teams around him? He living in a fantasy land in his head.
 
Are there people that really think that LeBron’s Miami team and his 2nd Cavs team we’re actually bad teams around him? He living in a fantasy land in his head.

I've figured it out. There's apparently a LeBron skin in Fortnite, and not an MJ one. :crazy:
 
This should be enlightening for you...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/lebron-james-michael-jordan-nba-playoffs-finals-preview-greatest-opponents-052517?amp=true

Here's the final tally: Jordan had the harder road through the postseason five times (Years 1, 4, 5, 8, and 10), while LeBron faced tougher competition (Years 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 11, and 12) in seven postseasons.

All while playing on rosters that couldn't reach .500 without him. Easy mode vs hard mode.

Data. You can either be fearful of it, or you can choose to accept it.

But that makes the claim that Jordan's Eastern path was much harder which is something you have argued. So you are wrong?
 
Also, aside from my previous points Jordan still has a higher PER (#1 all-time) if you consider that a valid metric, despite his later years with the Wizards.

PER is the most criticized of all the public analytics. John Hollinger created it in the mid 90's (20 years before the analytics boom really took off), it basically ignores defensive contributions and doesn't account for minutes played or level of competition. Once the analytics boom happened other stats were created to fix many of it's shortcomings.

PIPM (Player Impact Plus Minus) and BPM (Box Plus Minus) are largely considered to be the best single stats we have.

LeBron James beats Jordan handedly in both stats. Handedly.

Defensively, he put league MVP Derrick Rose (an offense only player) in what is known as the torture chamber, where he shut him down and forced him to shoot 6.3 percent in games 4 and 5 of the ECF to finish off the Bulls in 5.

Jordan was great. He's absolutely a top 2 - 5 GOAT candidate depending on how you rank the old timers, but he was simply the beneficiary of playing on better teams. Jordan did nothing until talent joined him. LeBron took no talent to the Finals.
 
PER is the most criticized of all the public analytics. John Hollinger created it in the mid 90's (20 years before the analytics boom really took off), it basically ignores defensive contributions and doesn't account for minutes played or level of competition. Once the analytics boom happened other stats were created to fix many of it's shortcomings.

PIPM (Player Impact Plus Minus) and BPM (Box Plus Minus) are largely considered to be the best single stats we have.

LeBron James beats Jordan handedly in both stats. Handedly.

Defensively, he put league MVP Derrick Rose (an offense only player) in what is known as the torture chamber, where he shut him down and forced him to shoot 6.3 percent in games 4 and 5 of the ECF to finish off the Bulls in 5.

Jordan was great. He's absolutely a top 2 - 5 GOAT candidate depending on how you rank the old timers, but he was simply the beneficiary of playing on better teams. Jordan did nothing until talent joined him. LeBron took no talent to the Finals.
Here are all the players ahead of Lebron in PIPM so far this year:

Giannis Antetokounmpo
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul George
Joel Embiid
Nikola Vucevic
Kyle Lowry
Stephen Curry
Kyrie Irving
Jusuf Nurkic
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Mike Conley
Brook Lopez
Jrue Holiday
Russell Westbrook
Nikola Jokic
Damian Lillard
Danny Green
Eric Bledsoe
Pascal Siakam
Kawhi Leonard

Does that sound right to you in terms of who the best player is this year? It certainly doesn't ring true to me. Also, the father of the PIPM, Jacob Goldstein, posted the career PIPM here:

https://www.bball-index.com/player-impact-plus-minus/

If you follow the link at the bottom to the Excel sheet and search by Lebron and Jordan, Jordan has the higher PIPM. Please link to where Lebron beats Jordan handedly in PIPM.
 
Here are all the players ahead of Lebron in PIPM so far this year:

Giannis Antetokounmpo
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul George
Joel Embiid
Nikola Vucevic
Kyle Lowry
Stephen Curry
Kyrie Irving
Jusuf Nurkic
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Mike Conley
Brook Lopez
Jrue Holiday
Russell Westbrook
Nikola Jokic
Damian Lillard
Danny Green
Eric Bledsoe
Pascal Siakam
Kawhi Leonard

Does that sound right to you in terms of who the best player is this year? It certainly doesn't ring true to me. Also, the father of the PIPM, Jacob Goldstein, posted the career PIPM here:

https://www.bball-index.com/player-impact-plus-minus/

If you follow the link at the bottom to the Excel sheet and search by Lebron and Jordan, Jordan has the higher PIPM. Please link to where Lebron beats Jordan handedly in PIPM.
Pascal Siakam is definitely better than Lebron. And lol at Jordan being #1 in this "advanaced" metric anyway.
 
Here are all the players ahead of Lebron in PIPM so far this year:

Giannis Antetokounmpo
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul George
Joel Embiid
Nikola Vucevic
Kyle Lowry
Stephen Curry
Kyrie Irving
Jusuf Nurkic
James Harden
Rudy Gobert
Mike Conley
Brook Lopez
Jrue Holiday
Russell Westbrook
Nikola Jokic
Damian Lillard
Danny Green
Eric Bledsoe
Pascal Siakam
Kawhi Leonard

Does that sound right to you in terms of who the best player is this year? It certainly doesn't ring true to me. Also, the father of the PIPM, Jacob Goldstein, posted the career PIPM here:

https://www.bball-index.com/player-impact-plus-minus/

If you follow the link at the bottom to the Excel sheet and search by Lebron and Jordan, Jordan has the higher PIPM. Please link to where Lebron beats Jordan handedly in PIPM.

Yeah, that list doesn't look right. I read two articles on PIPM and saw a carrier playoff chart with LeBron at the top of it. I'll look into it some more but...that's a rough list.
 
Claims that some "advanced" metric is the true way to judge talent, only casually looks at it by scanning two articles, passes along false information based on poor research gathering, and even then Lebron doesn't top the list. This is true trump supporter territory.
 
PER is the most criticized of all the public analytics. John Hollinger created it in the mid 90's (20 years before the analytics boom really took off), it basically ignores defensive contributions and doesn't account for minutes played or level of competition. Once the analytics boom happened other stats were created to fix many of it's shortcomings.

PIPM (Player Impact Plus Minus) and BPM (Box Plus Minus) are largely considered to be the best single stats we have.

LeBron James beats Jordan handedly in both stats. Handedly.

Defensively, he put league MVP Derrick Rose (an offense only player) in what is known as the torture chamber, where he shut him down and forced him to shoot 6.3 percent in games 4 and 5 of the ECF to finish off the Bulls in 5.

Jordan was great. He's absolutely a top 2 - 5 GOAT candidate depending on how you rank the old timers, but he was simply the beneficiary of playing on better teams. Jordan did nothing until talent joined him. LeBron took no talent to the Finals.

So winning the finals doesn't count but getting to the finals does?
 
So winning the finals doesn't count but getting to the finals does?

It's all encompassing.

Both players played on good teams. Both players played on bad teams.

LeBron took bad teams much farther than Jordan.
Jordan took better teams farther than LeBron.

At a certain point, you have to address the 55-27 Pippen season in your head. LeBron never played on a roster with nearly the same amount of talent.

The biggest knock to his legacy was that season.
 
It's all encompassing.

Both players played on good teams. Both players played on bad teams.

LeBron took bad teams much farther than Jordan.
Jordan took better teams farther than LeBron.

At a certain point, you have to address the 55-27 Pippen season in your head. LeBron never played on a roster with nearly the same amount of talent.

The biggest knock to his legacy was that season.

So the Celtics Lebron beat that didn't have their two best players are similar to the Bird Celtics Jordan lost to? Or the Pistons? Comical.

Lebron played won titles with 3 Hall of Famers in Miami and 2 in Cleveland. When you try to argue he had no talent with him you just look dumb.
 
I'll give credit where credit is due, and Lebron is no doubt an all-time great (#2 for me). Getting Cleveland to the Finals with Mo Williams as your second best player was a monumental achievement, as was winning two games against GSW with Love out the entire series and Kyrie out all but Game 1, and of course in 2016 to come back from 3-0 to win it all.

And I'll also go so far to say that if he somehow wins the title this year with the Lakers I will name him the greatest player of all time and will have it tattooed (temporarily) to my forehead.
 
So the Celtics Lebron beat that didn't have their two best players are similar to the Bird Celtics Jordan lost to? Or the Pistons? Comical.

No, I'm not saying that at all actually.

Lebron played won titles with 3 Hall of Famers in Miami and 2 in Cleveland. When you try to argue he had no talent with him you just look dumb.

The best tool we have to measure how talented each players team was is their record with each player off the team.

Jordans Bulls went 55-27 without him.
The Heat went 37-45 without LeBron.
The Cavaliers are currently 8-30 without LeBron.

(Cleveland blew up the roster the first time LeBron left, but I don't think anyone would argue that a team led by Mo Williams, Anderson Verajao, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and Shaq would have been anything other than a lottery team)

These are tough pills to swallow if you've been convinced Jordan was the best of all time. You still have to take your pills though.
 
No, I'm not saying that at all actually.

Well you are putting a lot of importance on that 7 game series win against Boston last year. We both know nobody in the East last year had a shot at the title.

What I do know is that the Heat were good enough to win all 4 years. They won 2. That is a great accomplishment but the GOAT wins all 4.
 
Well you are putting a lot of importance on that 7 game series win against Boston last year. We both know nobody in the East last year had a shot at the title.

What I do know is that the Heat were good enough to win all 4 years. They won 2. That is a great accomplishment but the GOAT wins all 4.

I literally never even referenced that series.

But keep ignoring how Jordan had the keys to a Lamborghini during his title years, while James was driving a minivan with bags full of groceries weighing him down...
 
Bulls record in 1999, 13-37 year after Jordan left. Prior year was 62-20 when Scottie Pippen missed 35 games. Jordan>>>>>>>>>Lebron
 
I literally never even referenced that series.

But keep ignoring how Jordan had the keys to a Lamborghini during his title years, while James was driving a minivan with bags full of groceries weighing him down...

Well something last year had to impress you. The Raptors? The Pacers? Almost winning a game vs GS? What did they do last year that is so shockingly GOAT-like?

I just know there is not year you can look at Jordan and say its his fault they didn't win the title. With Lebron? 2011. It ends the GOAT talk forever.
 
Well something last year had to impress you. The Raptors? The Pacers? Almost winning a game vs GS? What did they do last year that is so shockingly GOAT-like?

I just know there is not year you can look at Jordan and say its his fault they didn't win the title. With Lebron? 2011. It ends the GOAT talk forever.

Taking the worst roster in the league to the NBA Finals and forcing two highly competitive games with arguably the best team of all time is what impressed me.

Jordan never did that because Jordan couldn't do that.

Also, when you take a nap in your self driving Lamborghini, the self driving Lamborghini tends to still record decent lap times.

When you fall asleep in your 2005 Toyota Camery, you tend to crash into a fiery wreck.
 
Taking the worst roster in the league to the NBA Finals and forcing two highly competitive games with arguably the best team of all time is what impressed me.

Jordan never did that because Jordan couldn't do that.

Also, when you take a nap in your self driving Lamborghini, the self driving Lamborghini tends to still record decent lap times.

When you fall asleep in your 2005 Toyota Camery, you tend to crash into a fiery wreck.

So a team with 2 Hall of Famers beat a team without its two best players in 7 games and that makes him the GOAT

:laugh:

But you are right Jordan didn't do that because Jordan didn't lose in the Finals. So you got me there.