The End of the World: A Political Thread.

Kerosene31

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Bernie not only waiting to endorse her but ultimately leaving the party (only to come right back and win again) shows that he's a selfish fool.

Bernie's ego gets in the way and instead of admitting he got beaten severely, he went sour grapes and abandoned the party. How is the guy who couldn't beat Hillary going to beat Trump?

Bernie winning the primary means 4 more years of Trump. There's no doubt Bernie's ideas play well within the party, but in a general election in those states we need to flip? Warren may be even a little too far left, Bernie will just be an impossible sell.

The WaPo had a great Op-Ed on why middle and lower middle class workers don't relate to the Democrats anymore. It isn't that they differ on ideals, but more that the average Joe doesn't think that the Democrat ideas can actually work practically.

What the Democrats need is some pragmatism, and someone who can talk to those people in the Michigans and Pennsylvanias.

 

yankeessuck

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Blaming Bernie for waiting a month to endorse her didn't hurt her that's a BS line and yet another excuse she and her team use to try to distract from what an awful job they all did. Bernie voters weren't beholden to who he endorsed, they aren't bought and paid for and it was up to HER to bring them over and if they didn't vote for her it's because she didn't get the job done. A lot of the people who supported him were people who weren't likely to vote anyway they weren't rank and file loyal democrats who vote for whoever the DNC throws at us.

She won the popular vote (as she constantly reminds us) she lost in a few states she should have won, that's not on Bernie or anyone else it's on her and her terrible campaign staff, many of whom were recently working on the highly popular Kamala Harris campaign. Hillary is an entitled ass, she thought the Presidency was owed to her, she was totally oblivious to the fact that the economic policies she and her husband had been championing for decades ended up hurting a lot of people especially in the Midwest.
Is the election loss on her/her campaign? Without question and we have talked about it to death.

Does she take little to no responsibility for that? Also no question about it.

Do I think Bernie hurt her by endorsing her late? Maybe but he did her hurt her by attacking her for so long. When he could no longer win he was still attacking her. Nobody was going to benefit from that. You are obviously never going to get 100% of those supporters to vote for her but the idea that that doesn't matter is just ridiculous.

If I was her I would like to think I would recognize that the #1 reason I lost was myself but even if I did I would still be bitter towards Bernie and James Comey as well and other people or things that might have made the difference in an election that close. Yes Bernie was wrong. No bernie being wrong doesn't absolve Hillary of anything.
 

Videodrome

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Bernie not only waiting to endorse her but ultimately leaving the party (only to come right back and win again) shows that he's a selfish fool.

Bernie's ego gets in the way and instead of admitting he got beaten severely, he went sour grapes and abandoned the party.

Maybe a weird consequence of our 2 Party system? People who should be in 3rd Parties instead join the main 2 parties so they can participate in the debate. I'd include Trump also as someone who should have been 3rd Party or done a version of Perot's challenge to the main 2 parties.

3rd Parties keep being dismissed, but other options like Ranked Choice Voting seem like a good way to address this and give us a sane process of elimination.
 

Kerosene31

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Ultimately Hillary didn't campaign in places like Michigan (I believe her pneumonia was a big part of that) was obviously a huge problem. Trump went there a ton and won votes while Hillary didn't go there at all. Pretty simple.

What Bernie did (and didn't do) was just bad for the party in general. The fact that he comes back again now to run is really just disgusting. Is Bernie a Democrat or not? Is he going to cry and go indie when he loses?

Meanwhile the GOP worked comically hard to keep Trump from being the nominee (remember the Steele dossier was originally paid for by a conservative group), but once it became a lock he was going to win, they all got behind him, because it was the best thing for the party. All the so-called "Never Trump" Republicans? They stayed silent. That's why they win elections and we lose them.
 

Plainview

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Maybe a weird consequence of our 2 Party system? People who should be in 3rd Parties instead join the main 2 parties so they can participate in the debate. I'd include Trump also as someone who should have been 3rd Party or done a version of Perot's challenge to the main 2 parties.

3rd Parties keep being dismissed, but other options like Ranked Choice Voting seem like a good way to address this and give us a sane process of elimination.
With an electoral college, a 3rd party is nothing but a spoiler. If people want to keep the electoral college, no state should be winner take all electoral votes.
 

Kerosene31

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The big problem with the electoral college is ultimately it makes the most important decision come down to a few hundred thousand people in a couple of key states. Who and where those people are sometimes shifts, but typically a small group of people will decide the election.
 

Plainview

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The big problem with the electoral college is ultimately it makes the most important decision come down to a few hundred thousand people in a couple of key states. Who and where those people are sometimes shifts, but typically a small group of people will decide the election.
77,000 in 2016 from 4 states.
 
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Videodrome

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With an electoral college, a 3rd party is nothing but a spoiler. If people want to keep the electoral college, no state should be winner take all electoral votes.

Right. I'm saying independents will increasingly just join the Republicans or Democrats to try and hijack a mainstream party because they can at least get in the Primary.

Bernie is an independent, but runs for president as a Democrat.

I think Donald Trump could be considered independent as well and kind of usurped the GoP Primary.


Wasn't even Bloomberg a Republican previously? Maybe he's a late comer, but another independent?
 

Kerosene31

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That's why the parties mean a lot less than they used to. Republicans are miles away from what I think of as "conservative". Not all Democrats are necessarily liberals.

The whole left vs right thing doesn't even really apply anymore. When half the country believes any lie the orange one tells them, that's isn't a political movement, it is a cult.
 
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JinCA

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Right. I'm saying independents will increasingly just join the Republicans or Democrats to try and hijack a mainstream party because they can at least get in the Primary.

Bernie is an independent, but runs for president as a Democrat.

I think Donald Trump could be considered independent as well and kind of usurped the GoP Primary.


Wasn't even Bloomberg a Republican previously? Maybe he's a late comer, but another independent?
Trump was a Dem before he was a Republican and Bloomberg has been Dem, Rep and independent.
 
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JinCA

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Is the election loss on her/her campaign? Without question and we have talked about it to death.

Does she take little to no responsibility for that? Also no question about it.

Do I think Bernie hurt her by endorsing her late? Maybe but he did her hurt her by attacking her for so long. When he could no longer win he was still attacking her. Nobody was going to benefit from that. You are obviously never going to get 100% of those supporters to vote for her but the idea that that doesn't matter is just ridiculous.

If I was her I would like to think I would recognize that the #1 reason I lost was myself but even if I did I would still be bitter towards Bernie and James Comey as well and other people or things that might have made the difference in an election that close. Yes Bernie was wrong. No bernie being wrong doesn't absolve Hillary of anything.
Bernie hurt her because he was running against her that's what a primary is for, she is the one who was tied to Wall Street and she is the one who made her emails an issue to begin with so again it's ALL on her. Comey couldn't have harmed her candidacy if she hadn't knowingly done something shady, Bernie couldn't have hurt her candidacy if she hadn't been so involved with Wall Street and hadn't given such BS answers when asked about her connections there. Bernie still had a chance to win when he ran, he stopped when there was zero chance of it happening, he also wanted to help shape the party platform.
 

yankeessuck

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Bernie hurt her because he was running against her that's what a primary is for, she is the one who was tied to Wall Street and she is the one who made her emails an issue to begin with so again it's ALL on her. Comey couldn't have harmed her candidacy if she hadn't knowingly done something shady, Bernie couldn't have hurt her candidacy if she hadn't been so involved with Wall Street and hadn't given such BS answers when asked about her connections there. Bernie still had a chance to win when he ran, he stopped when there was zero chance of it happening, he also wanted to help shape the party platform.
When you can no longer win its time to stop attacking. That is when you shift to a more positive campaign that pushes her and the party on specific issues.
 

JinCA

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When you can no longer win its time to stop attacking. That is when you shift to a more positive campaign that pushes her and the party on specific issues.
He campaigned for her like crazy, hell he probably worked harder than she did but still he had a lot of support behind him and he didn't want to waste it all. Trying to get her to stop being so corporatist was a good thing, she never would have followed through in the end because that's not who she his but let's be real here she was NEVER going to win regardless of what he did or didn't do. She supported and called for economic policies that were leaving too many people behind, calling TPP the gold standard than turning around and saying she is against it when she saw polling that people weren't supporting it just shows how inauthentic she is. Trump didn't win because of Russia he won because we nominated a corrupt person who didn't have the charisma to make up for the lack of trust. We can't keep blaming everyone but her, it was HER fault she lost and it was our party that made the poor choice of anointing her the chosen one before she even declared her candidacy.
 

yankeessuck

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He campaigned for her like crazy, hell he probably worked harder than she did but still he had a lot of support behind him and he didn't want to waste it all. Trying to get her to stop being so corporatist was a good thing, she never would have followed through in the end because that's not who she his but let's be real here she was NEVER going to win regardless of what he did or didn't do. She supported and called for economic policies that were leaving too many people behind, calling TPP the gold standard than turning around and saying she is against it when she saw polling that people weren't supporting it just shows how inauthentic she is. Trump didn't win because of Russia he won because we nominated a corrupt person who didn't have the charisma to make up for the lack of trust. We can't keep blaming everyone but her, it was HER fault she lost and it was our party that made the poor choice of anointing her the chosen one before she even declared her candidacy.
I think he did enough after dropping out that I wouldn't really criticize him but he did attack her when he could no longer win. How much that hurt her (if it did) is something we can never say but it did happen.

Hopefully in 20 or 30 years we can talk about the election beyond just it being her fault. We know its her fault.
 

JinCA

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I think he did enough after dropping out that I wouldn't really criticize him but he did attack her when he could no longer win. How much that hurt her (if it did) is something we can never say but it did happen.

Hopefully in 20 or 30 years we can talk about the election beyond just it being her fault. We know its her fault.
Yeah that election was her fault and Trump even being able to make it through a primary let alone being elected is the result of both Democrats and Republicans basically screwing the little guy for decades. He didn't cause the problems that got him elected that's on the establishment of both major parties who've tried their best to enrich themselves and their wealthy donors while screwing the little guy and constantly trying to distract us by getting us to fight amongst ourselves over social issues that if we all calmed down and talked rationally we could mostly solve fairly easily.

I'm not saying Dems don't do more surface level stuff for the poor than republicans do but by and large their economic policies since the Clinton administration have been pretty much on par with Republicans. Obama let bankers pick his cabinet for crying out loud, his health plan was a republican plan from the 90's and at the end of the day gave insurance companies a lot more customers. The dems in general need to start being a party for the people again and not just the party that says they stand for the middle class and poor but basically do nothing to level the playing field.
 

JinCA

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I like the way the guy who's question he was answering responds towards the end of the video.
 

Videodrome

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I really like Andrew Yang, but don't turn weird on me please.

Even the campaign manager is looking at the camera and tapping him on the shoulder trying to stop this.



I don't take offence at this personally, but it just seems weird and immature.

I have actually donated to both Sanders and Yang because I think Yang brings topics to the discussion that are usually ignored completely.






 
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JinCA

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I really like Andrew Yang, but don't turn weird on me please.

Even another campaign handler is looking at the camera and tapping him on the shoulder.




Yeah it's a bit silly but I'd take this over grabbing a woman by the shoulders and smelling her hair any day lol.
 

Videodrome

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Yeah it's a bit silly but I'd take this over grabbing a woman by the shoulders and smelling her hair any day lol.
I think Sleepy Joe is much worse, but Yang campaign is on a hard but steady struggle to get in at least the top 4th or 5th place while benefitting from Kamala Harris dropping out.

I dunno, maybe this is an insane stunt to get attention from the debate moderators? Yet, he still has to qualify for that next debate.

Or he's a complete goofball despite being an astute entrepreneur.
 

JinCA

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I think Sleepy Joe is much worse, but Yang campaign is on a hard but steady struggle to get in at least the top 4th or 5th place while benefitting from Kamala Harris dropping out.

I dunno, maybe this is an insane stunt to get attention from the debate moderators? Yet, he still has to qualify for that next debate.

Or he's a complete goofball despite being an astute entrepreneur.
I think he was just getting caught up and having a good time, he said it was a New Hampshire tradition, he went to school there so maybe he knows something we don't.
 

yankeessuck

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I think Sleepy Joe is much worse, but Yang campaign is on a hard but steady struggle to get in at least the top 4th or 5th place while benefitting from Kamala Harris dropping out.

I dunno, maybe this is an insane stunt to get attention from the debate moderators? Yet, he still has to qualify for that next debate.

Or he's a complete goofball despite being an astute entrepreneur.
I can't see how he ever cracks the top 4 unless he just stays in forever. His numbers haven't moved in months.
 

JinCA

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I can't see how he ever cracks the top 4 unless he just stays in forever. His numbers haven't moved in months.
Yeah it's unlikely, he needs something that gets him some attention and the fact that he's been ignored during most of the debates and the coverage after doesn't help. He made a great point about UBI and how it could help keep a parent in the home during the last debate but it was almost completely ignored by the media.
 
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horns

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Our genius speaker.
Genuinely curious what this proves. She wasn't Speaker of the House when the Iraq War started. Was there any appetite for impeachment between 2007-2009? Keep in mind this was the start of the recession. Pelosi thought he was lying. What was she supposed to do?