The Xbox One Hardware Information Thread
- Thread starter Troublegum
- Start date
Does anyone in "the know" want to break down GPGPU? Read that it will be a big deal this gen. How does the X1 stack up in this area?
"The Audio processor was originally devised to be able to offload Kinect Audio processing, and the chip designers came to the audio team and said "We have a bunch of extra transistors we can throw in for free, what would you like them to do?" or something close to that. The SHAPE block was the result of that conversation." It was literally designed for offloading Kinect audio according to the very same bkilian. That it probably has extra processing power to do other things is why I said "most".
It's EXTREMELY reasonable to think that if SHAPE was "originally devised to be able to offload Kinect", that MOST of its processing is dedicated to offloading Kinect. With some room to do other things, because apparently they had extra transistor budget for it.
Point them out. Stop insulting me and making false accusations while turning a blind eye to the people claiming that MS/AMD engineers are lying or fudging their patch notes or making blanket PR statements or "NDAed". And all the groupthink ganging up "likes" and troll responses to your post.. sad.
I already posted my thoughts about TR/PRT and why I thought "secret proprietary TR sauce that has no evidence and that MS/AMD engineers directly contradict" is a conspiracy theory. Go back and read them if you care instead of making more blanket personal attacks.
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GPGPU is a complicated area, both should be good at it, far better then previous gen consoles or the Wii U. but I would give a slight advantage to the PS4 because it has higher main memory bandwidth (therefore less copying) and some small additions to the GPU to help support higher performance GPGPU.
You need to stop until you have mastered reading comprehension. Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean, I am simply describing the situation at hand.
It may be reasonable to THINK something about Kinect based upon its origins. It is not reasonable to INSIST that is the case simply because you want it to be, or to continue to insist such AFTER others have publicly stated the contrary. You have a very strong urge to believe certain things a certain way. That's fine. Not reasonable, but that's your journey.
No one is claiming anything about secret sauce. Again, there is a lot of confusion about what GCN levels are supported as well as the difference b/w PRT and TR. I frankly don't care which console supports what, I just want to know. No one is talking about any NDAs. That was mrxcrazypants. (also news flash: it was "embargoes" around the reviews, not NDAs; no one signed anything).
This is supposedly a technical thread, and some of us are looking for specific answers to specific questions. If you want to poop on xbox and fluff the PS4, or cry conspiracy, there are probably other threads to stalk.
I never insisted anything, much less after "others have publicly stated the contrary". Of course, bkilian is only a valid source on "stating the contrary" when OTHER people quote him. When I do it to support my reasoning that SHAPE is mostly dedicated to Kinect, it's utter tripe.
Posters here have repeatedly claimed that MS has some kind of patented, secretive, proprietary tiled texture hardware technology in the Xbox that they aren't obligated to reveal to anyone, and that isn't related to AMD's PRT. When asked for sources, links to patents, or even an admissal that MS has this sort of technology, hand waving and denials are given. That sounds like a classic "special sauce" conspiracy theory to me.
Have you even been reading the thread and keeping up with what's being claimed? It doesn't seem like it, more like you decided to barge in and start groupthink attacking the most convenient target available with false accusations. And still turning a blind eye to other posters cheering on other console's misfortune and flaming "sonygaf fanboys", two things I don't do. Also please continue to ignore all the good things I've said about xbox games and MS and all the criticism I've had of PS4 games and Sony.
Posters here have repeatedly claimed that MS has some kind of patented, secretive, proprietary tiled texture hardware technology in the Xbox that they aren't obligated to reveal to anyone, and that isn't related to AMD's PRT. When asked for sources, links to patents, or even an admissal that MS has this sort of technology, hand waving and denials are given. That sounds like a classic "special sauce" conspiracy theory to me.
Have you even been reading the thread and keeping up with what's being claimed? It doesn't seem like it, more like you decided to barge in and start groupthink attacking the most convenient target available with false accusations. And still turning a blind eye to other posters cheering on other console's misfortune and flaming "sonygaf fanboys", two things I don't do. Also please continue to ignore all the good things I've said about xbox games and MS and all the criticism I've had of PS4 games and Sony.
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Is it me....or is it hard to take anybody serious that doesn't have an Avatar? Old guy got called out and guess what.....he got the perfect mother f-n avatar.
When other people disagree with you en masse, one possibility might be that it's "groupthink" at work. Another possibility would be that your point is incorrect.
Claims of groupthink and trying to summon the spectre of "mrxmoron" in order to invalidate any discussion of things you don't like doesn't change reality. I don't care about GAF, I don't care which console has the bigger phallus. I'm curious about how this new rendering technique might affect games in the near future, and which console might provide better support for it (or if both provide equal support). So if you have valid, actual facts, and if you actually know what you are talking about (i.e., whatever you're spouting can't be gleamed from a cursory scan of GAF, this board, or B3D), then by all means, contribute to the conversation. But that's not what you're doing, that's not what you've done in the past (on EVERY thread you've posted to), and I'm sure that's not what you're going to do in the future. You have a very clear agenda that is transparent to all. You are entitled to it, but please do us the favor of at least being honest about it.
I've said my part. Now, let's have a chat with the adults. Anyone have any more information on this discussion related to the particulars of tiled resources versus PRT? Anyone who perhaps works with this stuff on a daily basis? Stupid sidebars aside, I'm actually dying for some actual information on this subject. That isn't colored by someone trying to justify their console purchase.
Claims of groupthink and trying to summon the spectre of "mrxmoron" in order to invalidate any discussion of things you don't like doesn't change reality. I don't care about GAF, I don't care which console has the bigger phallus. I'm curious about how this new rendering technique might affect games in the near future, and which console might provide better support for it (or if both provide equal support). So if you have valid, actual facts, and if you actually know what you are talking about (i.e., whatever you're spouting can't be gleamed from a cursory scan of GAF, this board, or B3D), then by all means, contribute to the conversation. But that's not what you're doing, that's not what you've done in the past (on EVERY thread you've posted to), and I'm sure that's not what you're going to do in the future. You have a very clear agenda that is transparent to all. You are entitled to it, but please do us the favor of at least being honest about it.
I've said my part. Now, let's have a chat with the adults. Anyone have any more information on this discussion related to the particulars of tiled resources versus PRT? Anyone who perhaps works with this stuff on a daily basis? Stupid sidebars aside, I'm actually dying for some actual information on this subject. That isn't colored by someone trying to justify their console purchase.
Here comes the backpedaling. I listed good reasons why I think "exclusive proprietary secret TR special sauce in Xbox" is nonsense in my opinion. You fail to address those reasons, probably because you haven't even read the thread to see the outlandish claims that posters like neo and ceger have been making. Their claims have little or nothing to do with the more reasonable speculation of GCN1.0/1.1 or PRT. I already noted this pages ago. I'm simply applying reason and logic and Occam's Razor to the situation, despite your continued accusations and name calling.
Yes, when you make a fallacious, wrong, and insulting post towards me, then a bunch of posters click "like" regardless of how accurate or logical it is, it's groupthink. It's ganging up on a poster because they say unpopular things based on logic, reason, and evidence.
Just keep name calling and making false accusations while doing the exact things you accuse me of, and turning a blind eye to other posters doing the same - that is a hugely hypocritical "agenda" right there. Or maybe read some of the thread before jumping in and insulting people? That would be the "adult" thing to do. And no, nobody here is an "expert" on tiled textures, in fact experts like AMD engineers are regularly dismissed in this thread by posters like neo and ceger.
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So you get "most" of SHAPE is to offload Kinect out of that... because that is where the audio block design started from? That doesn't seem to make any sense. What does that have to do with the end product? I honestly don't think you even read what you quoted.
First of all, you should understand that shape is NOT the entire audio block. Next, understand that Kinect audio processing is NOT even in SHAPE, but in the surrounding audio block. Again, we are talking about AN AUDIO BLOCK, NOT A KINECT PROCESSOR.
Audio block, per VGLeaks:
Do you see that part pertaining to Kinect audio? It isn't in SHAPE at all, is it? The ASP and AVP likely both pertain to Kinect. There is a whole lot left on the audio block for... well, at least a whole lot of audio related stuff.
If the audio block (which includes shape) was made specifically to offload kinect, it's reasonable to think most of it is dedicated to that. They had some extra transistor budget to add some more processing to it, great. A leaked slide that doesn't have the word "kinect" in the shape chip doesn't mean much to me. The point was there's a lot of straw grasping at things like latency, balance, offloading, custom, upclocks, etc. that don't have much or any effect on games performance.
If someone told me there was proprietary, patented, secret tiled texture hardware tech in PS4 with no evidence for it and contradictions from AMD engineers, I would say the same thing about it.
If someone told me there was proprietary, patented, secret tiled texture hardware tech in PS4 with no evidence for it and contradictions from AMD engineers, I would say the same thing about it.
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Also an adult. Software developer as well, but not in gaming at all. Have very little of substance to add but:
I stopped discussing with some people here as they are the type where it doesn't matter what is discussed, just keep referring to their "bullet point" links and make factual statements because they cannot look beyond the fact of the actual link in its context.
Just not worth the time. I'm just taking (and now understand) the MS stance: let the games and platform do the talking .
Just not worth the time. I'm just taking (and now understand) the MS stance: let the games and platform do the talking .
I second that. Some few people got FUD and jumped ship, but we have also got some from the other camp
You've been arguing with idiots, and as Ron White says ,"you can't fix stupid."
Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about when I mention TR conspiracy theories/special sauce, because apparently some people can't be bothered to read the actual thread. You know, the "adult" thing to do, contrary to everyone insulting me? I'm sorry if I choose to use evidence, logic, reason, and handy tools like Occam's Razor.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/52485
"Yes, the PS4 can execute 50% more draw calls. It is just that the X1 draw calls can do twice as much work. Guess who wins in that comparison."
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/57660
"Crytek CEO letting the cat out of the bag indirectly?" Ryse devs hinting at secret XB1 power.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58488
"Once pervasive sparse texture rendering takes over the engine design, the PS4 will be at a significant disadvantage ever after."
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58032
"MS bought rights to make their own modifications to the GPU/ESRAM", MS doesn't need to disclose these hardware changes because they're "proprietary".
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58390
"this is generally undisclosed info, but the pieces in terms of agreements and work with AMD are available publicly about".
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58997
In response to actual AMD engineer statements - "The PR is blanket"
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/59460
"Your AMD engineer said drivers would have support in October. Well it is November, there is still no Tiled Resources support in AMD drivers." Once again dissing actual AMD engineers.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/59491
"you can see AMD whoring their failure to deliver Tier 2 Tiled resources as some sort of feature. But we already knew that AMD could never deliver Tier 2" AMD driver patch note conspiracy theories.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/59719
"the industry has already moved onto tiled rendering techniques, and the PS4 is at a significant disadvantage."
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/60062
Q: "Can you show us the patents?" A: "Not going to go looking for them"
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/52485
"Yes, the PS4 can execute 50% more draw calls. It is just that the X1 draw calls can do twice as much work. Guess who wins in that comparison."
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/57660
"Crytek CEO letting the cat out of the bag indirectly?" Ryse devs hinting at secret XB1 power.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58488
"Once pervasive sparse texture rendering takes over the engine design, the PS4 will be at a significant disadvantage ever after."
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58032
"MS bought rights to make their own modifications to the GPU/ESRAM", MS doesn't need to disclose these hardware changes because they're "proprietary".
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58390
"this is generally undisclosed info, but the pieces in terms of agreements and work with AMD are available publicly about".
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/58997
In response to actual AMD engineer statements - "The PR is blanket"
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/59460
"Your AMD engineer said drivers would have support in October. Well it is November, there is still no Tiled Resources support in AMD drivers." Once again dissing actual AMD engineers.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/59491
"you can see AMD whoring their failure to deliver Tier 2 Tiled resources as some sort of feature. But we already knew that AMD could never deliver Tier 2" AMD driver patch note conspiracy theories.
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/59719
"the industry has already moved onto tiled rendering techniques, and the PS4 is at a significant disadvantage."
http://unionvgf.com/index.php?posts/60062
Q: "Can you show us the patents?" A: "Not going to go looking for them"
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The MEC in the audio block is for Kinect. SHAPE is separate from that and afaik doesn't do anything with Kinect.
Alright, let's look at mine,,,
So what he says in the GTTV interview was dubbed over? It is what he said. Ryse seems to fully support his assertions.
And? That is why AMD is partner in developing the CUSTOM SOC in the X1. AMD retains rights to its IP in it, MS the customizations they added unless providing shared aspects (such as possibly aspects of SHAPE. There is much more customization within the X1 SOC, those parts are exclusively controlled by MS.
I'll give you this one as I cannot find the info that I was able to find previously if that makes you feel better.
Truth when it is stated by AMD engineers specifically that only a single IP stack such as Bonaire had Tier 2 hardware support and used GCN 1.1. So AMD marketing/PR saying that all of their stack (7000 series supports Tier 2 TR is untrue, thus a blanket statement. Future cards fro 290 on support it, yes, as well as the one rebranded R8 card which is the Bonaire.
Explained why I won't search plus the fact that you guys will just volley in another page or two of links pointing to things seemingly contrary, thus just continue on the cr@p argument you perpetuate.
So what he says in the GTTV interview was dubbed over? It is what he said. Ryse seems to fully support his assertions.
And? That is why AMD is partner in developing the CUSTOM SOC in the X1. AMD retains rights to its IP in it, MS the customizations they added unless providing shared aspects (such as possibly aspects of SHAPE. There is much more customization within the X1 SOC, those parts are exclusively controlled by MS.
I'll give you this one as I cannot find the info that I was able to find previously if that makes you feel better.
Truth when it is stated by AMD engineers specifically that only a single IP stack such as Bonaire had Tier 2 hardware support and used GCN 1.1. So AMD marketing/PR saying that all of their stack (7000 series supports Tier 2 TR is untrue, thus a blanket statement. Future cards fro 290 on support it, yes, as well as the one rebranded R8 card which is the Bonaire.
Explained why I won't search plus the fact that you guys will just volley in another page or two of links pointing to things seemingly contrary, thus just continue on the cr@p argument you perpetuate.
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Skepticism over the Xbox having some secret huge reserve of hardware power that MS is keeping under wraps is not "a crap argument". It's a reasonable and logical one. And it's the same reason most people don't take those claims seriously.
No one sane here is trying to spread any conspiracy theories. This isn't about secret sauce. And if you try to make me out as one of the conspiracy nut jobs, you're pissing in the wind. Please, check my post history. I don't think there's another member more anti-mrxmedia than me. I've said that if you listen to him, you need to cut off your own genitals, for christ's sake. So that's not what's going on here. You're building a very obvious straw man, just to have something to say. But no one's talking about your red herring.
So again, unless you have definitive answers about the questions surrounding GCN level support, or TR versus PRT, and have some reason why anyone should believe you know what you're talking about, then just go into another thread or something. Honestly, if you want to start an "anti-secret-sauce" thread, do so and I'll gladly join in, because I hate that stuff. But again, the adults here aren't talking about that.
Please point me to where I said they have some secret huge reserve of hardware power? I think you are stitching things in from different people and making arguments that do not exist with certain people. Mentioning what the Crytek CEO had to say in response to a question about the X1 power and that Ryse is probably the most next gen looking game coming so far seemed reasonable an ascertain to what he was stating.
Maybe you need to slow down and look at your overall approach here, and stop sidewinding.
You misunderstand what he said. He is saying the audio block was built to handle Kinect stuff to free up the CPU. The audio block is a set of 4 processors specific to handling audio. The MEC (one of the 4 main processors in the audio block) is what handles Kinect. SHAPE is separate from that. They came to the audio team and said they had taken care of Kinect but had lots of extra transistors in their budget to work with, hence the audio guys decided to spend that on SHAPE. You've conflated SHAPE with the audio block. The former is a subset of the latter.
Anyone that actually knows how to read and learn about things know this. But you will now see yet another reply with another link referrencing something out of context in order to refute the actual information.
Joy.
When you and many others are assuming a priori that the machine is weak and incompetent from a tech pov in terms of comparing favorably with PS4 you put yourself in the position where you have no room for new information unless it jives with your predispositions/assumptions. Nearly everyone has completely dismissed the eSRAM, display planes, SHAPE, and DME's as being wholly useless and ignorable since January. The ONLY metric that matters was flops/CU's and context was to be shoveled under the rug. When you ignore all that information about those components anything they do to improve X1's design is automatically seen as 'secret' sauce. Nothing secret about it in reality. Almost all of the details on these items were known in January.
We are at a point where even noting that they have real world benefits underlying their purpose for inclusion in the design is morbidly being twisted into the unearthing of advocating vast arrays of Volcanic Islands dGPU's and terabytes of RAM in X1. There is a middle ground that sits far away from the misterx's of the world one the one end, and equally far from the ignorant hordes on GAF who ignore any and all specs they don't like at the other. You should join us in that middle ground sometime. Ya might like it.
That is what I was trying to tell him. SHAPE has NO Kinect function. It was never in what he quoted, nor did he read what he quoted from me.
I thought I read that 1 of 4 processors in the audio block was Kinect audio, like you say, but I couldn't find that.