The Xbox One Hardware Information Thread

I never insisted anything, much less after "others have publicly stated the contrary". Of course, bkilian is only a valid source on "stating the contrary" when OTHER people quote him. When I do it to support my reasoning that SHAPE is mostly dedicated to Kinect, it's utter tripe.

You read what bkilian said wrong. It doesn't say what you thought it did...hence you get called out for that misinformation as you spread it around the forum.

Posters here have repeatedly claimed that MS has some kind of patented, secretive, proprietary tiled texture hardware technology in the Xbox that they aren't obligated to reveal to anyone, and that isn't related to AMD's PRT.

They do have that but it's hardly hidden or secretive. The patent is open for the public to read. I posted it on TXB way back in March.

When asked for sources, links to patents, or even an admissal that MS has this sort of technology, hand waving and denials are given. That sounds like a classic "special sauce" conspiracy theory to me.

ANYTHING you don't want to hear is 'secret sauce' to you. That's easier to dismiss than actually dealing with the realities of it. And fyi, patents aren't easy to dig up after the fact. MS files hundreds of them every single month with obscure names.
 
Could we actually address the difference between PRT and TR please? Instead of bickering with someone who clearly has nothing to add to the discussion.
 
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I know I'm odd man out. But the I cannot wait to see what developers do with the audio functions on the One.
 
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Could we actually address the difference between PRT and TR please? Instead of bickering with someone who clearly has nothing to add to the discussion.

He was misunderstanding something. I won't shy away from clarifying for him or anyone else, regardless of their post history or supposed biases.

The tiled resources API exposes the underlying hardware page tables to devs. It allows devs to have access to programming to the metal in ways that can accommodate things like virtual texturing. It's the DirectX update that allows for this. The was already doable with an extension in OpenGL on AMD machines but that extension last I heard was still limited (in software, not hardware) in terms of the sizes of the tables that could be used effectively. Presumably this DirectX version won't have such limitations.

I also recall Corinne Yu making a point in a tech9 interview a while back about how textures weren't the only type of game asset that could be tiled efficiently. I also think Project Milo's graphics tech involved some innovative approaches to virtualizing geometry (it also used virtual textures). Carmack's next version of idTech will include virtual geometry as its main innovation. So I'd bet on this update for DirectX being built with that kind of more general tiled stuff in mind.

If you want to discuss MS's tiled rendering patent from March, you'd have to dig it up first as I no longer have it. It was a totally new methodology for how the GPU was handling and being fed data to chew on which was only doable by virtue of the low latency eSRAM and the display planes acting as buffers for localized portions of the screen.
 
I have no idea where to find that sort of information. Ive never dug up patents.
 
And yes, back in 2008 Carmack was talking about virtualized geometry as their next step.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fe...ge_id_tech_6_doom_4_details_and_more?page=0,1

MPC: Do you think we’ve reached a point of diminishing returns with regard to graphics?
JC: There’re interesting things to talk about in that direction, [for example] with Quake Live. We’re taking this ancient graphics technology, it’s nine years old, but we’re wrapping it in this other way to innovate, with the website interface for all of that. It’s clear that there are certain types of games that we’re past the curve for the benefit. For the highly competitive games, competitors would crank the detail all the way down, sometimes going too far. It’s cool that we’re running those games now at 60Hz on 2 million-pixel monitors.

There’s still value to be gained at the high end with graphics. We’ve got some wonderful looking stuff with Rage where we can do things with the environments that people have never seen before. Rage and id tech 5 will make a lot of games start to look plain. We’ve seen that phenomenon with previous games, where people don’t know exactly what they’re missing until they’re shown it, but it makes some of the other things look shabby in comparison.

I still think there’s one more generation to be had where we virtualize geometry with id Tech 6 and do some things that are truly revolutionary.

Do you think this is applicable to the configuration MS has chosen?
 
Sooooooooooooo concerning the hardware. I know keyboards were verified, how about mice or pointers? And why do we have no damn confirmation of a chatpad.
 
Could we actually address the difference between PRT and TR please? Instead of bickering with someone who clearly has nothing to add to the discussion.

Ok I have some explaining to do. However I am merely a student here. If I make some mistakes please bear with me.

PRT or partially resident textures is a hardware interface to to mega-textures, sparse virtual textures or whatever you want to call it. It allows shaders to access arbitrarily large textures at render time. However at this time it only supports a single sample. It would be useful for large height maps, and the textures that cover the height fields, etc. However, if a developer wanted to multisample the texture they were calling (say mipmap, bilinear, trilinear, or anisotropoic filtering) they would have to manually request the samples and blend in their shader code. If a requested sample is outside the current tile, the software or driver would have to fetch the requested tile. If you look at the Tier 1 example code in the Microsoft SDK you can see how this works.

PRT tiles can not be render targets. In this regards it is useless as an acceleration function.

It is an incomplete solution in regards to the DirectX Tiled Resources API.

The DirectX Tiled Resources API goes much beyond the functions that PRT accomplishes. A Tiled Resource can be a render target in the TR API. When a shader renders a fragment into a Tiled Resource, the hardware or driver software, calls forth the tiles that need to be rendered to, and applies the shader to all the correct tiles.

This matters because In physically based lighting systems the single most computationally expensive function is calculating light sources, and light source occlusion. When a particular render frame in broken down into tiles, the active lights can be sorted and calculated in only the tile buckets that they influence(this happens in screen space). A tile that only has sky dome in it for example only needs to figure ambient light. A farm across a valley in a fantasy game only needs to figure for ambient, and sunlight. On the other hand the character model in a third person brawler is able to use Ambient, Sunlight SSAO, A subsurface scatter on skin materials. Perhaps some Cubic Reflection on metallic materials.

The render target that all this information is stored in is called a g-buffer. I don't totally understand these you should ask kb, as he understands g-buffers much better than I do. Anyhow the Tiled Resources api in DirectX 11.2 and 11.1+ manages this whole thing for the developer.

That this data structure is also perfectly sized to fit in the GPU cache, and is also thread safe is a real enhancement as well. The only hardware that seems designed to move these tiles around is the DMA hardware in the X1. Every thing here can be accomplished in software on the PC and other game platforms as well. In fact some games on the X360 already use techniques like this. The X1 seems designed to move these Tiles around. It has some specialized processors that seem perfectly suitedthem. Even keep them compressed in jpeg format until they are needed.

Turn up your volume and press play on video below now.

#balance conspiracytheory


Also... 32 megabytes is the perfect quantity to address 8 gigabytes into 256 byte tiles. A 256 byte tile would fit nicely into every cache in every computation unit on the x1. The CPUs, GPUs, the audio dsp. It is almost if it was all planned that way.

 
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the xb1 doesn't have game streaming right? I think it's a pretty neat feature I would enjoy using.

Would be cool if Microsoft came out with a dock system or something for tablets/smartphones so you can stream games from the xb1.
 
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No one sane here is trying to spread any conspiracy theories. This isn't about secret sauce. And if you try to make me out as one of the conspiracy nut jobs, you're pissing in the wind. Please, check my post history. I don't think there's another member more anti-mrxmedia than me. I've said that if you listen to him, you need to cut off your own genitals, for christ's sake. So that's not what's going on here. You're building a very obvious straw man, just to have something to say. But no one's talking about your red herring.

So again, unless you have definitive answers about the questions surrounding GCN level support, or TR versus PRT, and have some reason why anyone should believe you know what you're talking about, then just go into another thread or something. Honestly, if you want to start an "anti-secret-sauce" thread, do so and I'll gladly join in, because I hate that stuff. But again, the adults here aren't talking about that.
"That leaked powerpoint slide doesn't explicitly mention Kinect on some of the chips, that must mean it has nothing to do with Kinect, even though the audio block was reportedly designed for the sole purpose of offloading Kinect!" I don't think a powerpoint slide is necessarily indicative of the relative size of those chips or what they're dedicated to.

But whatever, the point was that people were making "offloading" claims as a way to imply PS4 would be bottlenecked because it had to do those things on the CPU. Then it turned out at least some of the audio chips were dedicated to kinect, and PS4 apparently has a nice trueaudio DSP to do offloading of its own. End result? Little or no difference to games performance.

So you completely ignored all those posts by neo and ceger, then continue to insult me. Amazing. It's like the post didn't even exist.

Explain to me how "There's secret massive TR hardware power in Xbox that MS hasn't revealed yet, and there's no official evidence for, and actually AMD engineers directly contradict it, but Cevat Yerli totally hinted at it!" is any different from the usual misterx stuff?

I stand by my assertion that they're making implausible conspiracy claims about massive hidden power in the Xbox, and my reasons for dismissing it. I laid out the posts nice and neatly for you. You can ignore it and keep backpedaling and name calling, but none of this misterx level stuff matters to reality anyway.

Keep talking about "adults" while slinging crap. And no, there are no "experts" here at the level you expect to have "definitive answers" explained to you. Considering AMD engineers' words are routinely dismissed as "blanket PR" and unreliable/wrong, I doubt they would want to come here anyway.
 
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You misunderstand what he said. He is saying the audio block was built to handle Kinect stuff to free up the CPU. The audio block is a set of 4 processors specific to handling audio. The MEC (one of the 4 main processors in the audio block) is what handles Kinect. SHAPE is separate from that. They came to the audio team and said they had taken care of Kinect but had lots of extra transistors in their budget to work with, hence the audio guys decided to spend that on SHAPE. You've conflated SHAPE with the audio block. The former is a subset of the latter.

That is exactly how I understood bkillian's comments, too. SHAPE is the result of the extra transistor budget and seemingly confirms what was said at the Hot Chips presentation. Of course, to some, confirmation of what they want believed can be found everywhere, even in something as contradictory as the statement we're referring to here.
 
"That leaked powerpoint slide doesn't explicitly mention Kinect on some of the chips, that must mean it has nothing to do with Kinect, even though the audio block was reportedly designed for the sole purpose of offloading Kinect!" I don't think a powerpoint slide is necessarily indicative of the relative size of those chips or what they're dedicated to.

But whatever, the point was that people were making "offloading" claims as a way to imply PS4 would be bottlenecked because it had to do those things on the CPU. Then it turned out at least some of the audio chips were dedicated to kinect, and PS4 apparently has a nice trueaudio DSP to do offloading of its own. End result? Little or no difference to games performance.

So you completely ignored all those posts by neo and ceger, then continue to insult me. Amazing. It's like the post didn't even exist.

Explain to me how "There's secret massive TR hardware power in Xbox that MS hasn't revealed yet, and there's no official evidence for, and actually AMD engineers directly contradict it, but Cevat Yerli totally hinted at it!" is any different from the usual misterx stuff?

I stand by my assertion that they're making implausible conspiracy claims about massive hidden power in the Xbox, and my reasons for dismissing it. I laid out the posts nice and neatly for you. You can ignore it and keep backpedaling and name calling, but none of this misterx level stuff matters to reality anyway.

Keep talking about "adults" while slinging crap. And no, there are no "experts" here at the level you expect to have "definitive answers" explained to you. Considering AMD engineers' words are routinely dismissed as "blanket PR" and unreliable/wrong, I doubt they would want to come here anyway.
YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING FOR SURE ABOUT SHAPE. You have been proven incorrect on your assumptions about it. No one cares where the idea for it started at Microsoft; all evidence points to the fact that it is indeed offloading about a CPU core worth of audio processing. And recent news about the PS4 audio chips suggests they MIGHT have something similar. MIGHT. MIGHT. Check the latest on B3d, since you love it so much. I just did. No one is sure exactly what the relationship is between AMD's TrueAudio and the PS4's processor. You very easily dismiss the things you don't want to hear as lies, and accept the things you do want to hear as fact. Very, very poor reasoning. EVERYONE is taking you to task, not because of group think, but because you are most often wrong, or shifting your message, or otherwise just being a jerk.

You are chasing the straw man of "secret sauce" while others are trying to understand the true nature of GCN compatibility levels and TR versus PRT. There is a lot of unknown that people are trying to understand. The truth may end being that this stuff doesn't make any difference, but you come into this discussion, as you do every other discussion on this board, pissing all over everything and completely missing the point of what people are talking about. Because you have your own things that you want to talk about. We get it. Now unless you have REAL information to offer, instead of feeling the need to shut down every thread as about "secret sauce", then please just stop and go home.

Neo, your information indicates some kind of knowledge of this stuff but you say you're only a student? Any actual experience in the field, or just school?
 
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But whatever, the point was that people were making "offloading" claims as a way to imply PS4 would be bottlenecked because it had to do those things on the CPU. Then it turned out at least some of the audio chips were dedicated to kinect, and PS4 apparently has a nice trueaudio DSP to do offloading of its own. End result? Little or no difference to games performance.

1) SHAPE isn't the same thing as 'the audio block'. The audio block on X1 is comprised of 4 main processors, one of which is the MEC which is the one that primarily handles Kinect audio work. SHAPE afaik does absolutely nothing with Kinect. It handles the synthesis and encoding/decoding/etc of over 500 voices in-game.

2) We know nothing about what it means to have PS4's audio chip 'based on TrueAudio'. If it meant anything more than just encoding/decoding 200 voices then Cerny would have explicitly said so. Instead, he said it basically only does the aforementioned encoding/decoding. Devs on B3d have backed this interpretation up to a tee. The notion that both have comparable audio chips is laughable in the face of the facts we have directly from Sony, Cerny, dev docs and known devs.

Explain to me how "There's secret massive TR hardware power in Xbox that MS hasn't revealed yet, and there's no official evidence for, and actually AMD engineers directly contradict it, but Cevat Yerli totally hinted at it!" is any different from the usual misterx stuff?

Are you directly quoting someone here or are you fabricating a quote to erect yet another strawman argument? Please link to the person who you are directly quoting here. Also, read the patent posted. That's clearly for X1. Whether or not it wll be leveraged is another question, but the tech design is there to go very far beyond what AMD's setup traditionally can utilize when handling PRT's. And it was wholly designed by MS, not AMD. AMD only did the GPU/CPU. The helper hardware was all MS/Tensilica.

I stand by my assertion that they're making implausible conspiracy claims about massive hidden power in the Xbox, and my reasons for dismissing it.

Who is 'they'? List the ppl who made the claims you assert they made and link us to said posts please. Otherwise you are simply lying and trolling.

I laid out the posts nice and neatly for you. You can ignore it and keep backpedaling and name calling, but none of this misterx level stuff matters to reality anyway.

Acknowledging the display planes, DME's, eSRAM, SHAPE, and existing patents based on the display planes/eSRAM as a clever exploit of how tiled rendering works isn't remotely conspiratorial. misterx was claiming hidden GPU's all over the place and made up NDA's etc. All the items I just listed are wholly public and known quantities confirmed by MS in detail in dev docs, in depth interviews, and symposium presentations along with patents. If you wish to conflate this information with conspiracy nuts then you must likewise disregard literally every bit of info we have on PS4's hardware as well, as that too was sourced by Sony, Cerny, dev docs, etc. Can't have it both ways where you take literally anything Sony et al say as the gospel but turn around and dismiss literally everything MS has said as if it were conspiratorial gibberish.

Keep talking about "adults" while slinging crap. And no, there are no "experts" here at the level you expect to have "definitive answers" explained to you. Considering AMD engineers' words are routinely dismissed as "blanket PR" and unreliable/wrong, I doubt they would want to come here anyway.

There are some on B3d. In fact, the guy who made many of the GPU hardware modifications for X1/PS4 posts there. So does at least 1 other AMD employee. And the rendering guru at DICE and various other devs. oldguy would be better off asking his questions there. I would agree with you that the notion that only ppl with hands on experience should be posting in tech threads is r******d though.
 
the xb1 doesn't have game streaming right? I think it's a pretty neat feature I would enjoy using.

Would be cool if Microsoft came out with a dock system or something for tablets/smartphones so you can stream games from the xb1.

The display planes allow for that use explicitly. It's just not mandated like it is on PS4 (unless you are Blizzard apparently).
 
There are some on B3d. In fact, the guy who made many of the GPU hardware modifications for X1/PS4 posts there. So does at least 1 other AMD employee. And the rendering guru at DICE and various other devs. oldguy would be better off asking his questions there. I would agree with you that the notion that only ppl with hands on experience should be posting in tech threads is r******d though.
Well, that's not technically what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, we've heard from people who have read all the same stuff online as us, and it would be nice to hear from someone who actually has a working knowledge of the subject, as opposed to a dilettante. Don't get me wrong, I'm a dilettante here, too. I was just asking the people who started to sound NOT like dilettante's to offer some information as to what their backgrounds were, so we could understand where they're coming from and help us form opinions on which side of the contentions TR/PRT debate we agree with.

None of it was meant to be dismissive, reductive, or contentious, just asking for more info. Except my posts in reply to clownwarz, which were fully designed to attack his shapeless, rambling arguments.
 
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You are chasing the straw man of "secret sauce" while others are trying to understand the true nature of GCN compatibility levels and TR versus PRT. There is a lot of unknown that people are trying to understand. The truth may end being that this stuff doesn't make any difference, but you come into this discussion, as you do every other discussion on this board, pissing all over everything and completely missing the point of what people are talking about. Because you have your own things that you want to talk about. We get it. Now unless you have REAL information to offer, instead of feeling the need to shut down every thread as about "secret sauce", then please just stop and go home.
I backed up my speculation about xbox audio "offloading", didn't say it was a fact or that I "knew anything for sure". Still seems reasonable to me that some (if not most) of it is offloading kinect. You seem unwilling to address any of that, just preferring to insult me, as usual.

I haven't dismissed anything here as "lies" - please find a single quote of me calling anyone in this thread a liar. You are once again making up baseless and false accusations - more flinging stuff at the wall hoping it sticks. It is groupthink to falsely accuse someone of something while insulting them, then others pile on with "likes" without anyone actually checking to see if they said those things.

You're refusing to admit that "secret powerful special sauce" is what neo and ceger's claims amount to. You leapt into this thread without reading, started attacking a convenient target, and now you're backpedaling and insulting me to cover up for your presumptions. You're projecting calling people jerks "pissing on everything" when that's exactly what you've just done in this thread.

I'm not the one celebrating a game or console having technical issues, cheering on the "meltdowns", or calling people "fanboys clinging to their plastic toys". Of course, keep turning a blind eye to the posters actually saying those things, not me.

The misterx "hater" is obstinately defending "neo and ceger's secret sauce" while throwing evidence-less accusations at me about things I've never said. Bizarro world.
 
same s***, different post

It's amazing how frequently you have to resort to the "people insulting you" deflection tactic. I suppose we all face the struggle with finding a balance between seeking enlightenment and just shouting louder.
 
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I backed up my speculation about xbox audio "offloading", didn't say it was a fact or that I "knew anything for sure". Still seems reasonable to me that some (if not most) of it is offloading kinect. You seem unwilling to address any of that, just preferring to insult me, as usual.

I haven't dismissed anything here as "lies" - please find a single quote of me calling anyone in this thread a liar. You are once again making up baseless and false accusations - more flinging stuff at the wall hoping it sticks. It is groupthink to falsely accuse someone of something while insulting them, then others pile on with "likes" without anyone actually checking to see if they said those things.

You're refusing to admit that "secret powerful special sauce" is what neo and ceger's claims amount to. You leapt into this thread without reading, started attacking a convenient target, and now you're backpedaling and insulting me to cover up for your presumptions. You're projecting calling people jerks "pissing on everything" when that's exactly what you've just done in this thread.

I'm not the one celebrating a game or console having technical issues, cheering on the "meltdowns", or calling people "fanboys clinging to their plastic toys". Of course, keep turning a blind eye to the posters actually saying those things, not me.

The misterx "hater" is obstinately defending "neo and ceger's secret sauce" while throwing evidence-less accusations at me about things I've never said. Bizarro world.

The Tiled Resources API/hardware interface is not a conspiracy theory. You can go and read all about it on the DirectX 11.2 SDK. It is designed to do exactly what I say.

Sorting light sources into Tile Buckets is a rendering technique that is already being used.

Breaking render targets down into tiles so that they fit into GPU cache and can be read and written to rapidly is a technique that is used now. Just there is no hardware acceleration for it except on the X1,

That the 32 mb of ESRAM is the perfect size to address 8 gig of DDR ram tiles that are cache size is not a coincidence.

There is no secret sauce what so ever. Microsoft has been very open about their hardware. They have basically stated that their hardware is designed to move Tiles around. The only problem you are having is that you do not understand the modern deferred rendering pipeline. Yes, the X1 is designed to streamline Tiles through the system. The X1 accomplishes with efficiency what the PS4 tries to accomplish with brute force.
 
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That the 32 gig of ESRAM is the perfect size to address 8 gig of DDR ram tiles that are cache size is not a coincidence.

You should fix that bolded bit. That falls into something that even I can definitely say is incorrect. ;)
 
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The Tiled Resources API/hardware interface is not a conspiracy theory. You can go and read all about it on the DirectX 11.2 SDK. It is designed to do exactly what I say.

Sorting light sources into Tile Buckets is a rendering technique that is already being used.

Breaking render targets down into tiles so that they fit into GPU cache and can be read and written to rapidly is a technique that is used now. Just there is no hardware acceleration for it except on the X1,

That the 32 mb of ESRAM is the perfect size to address 8 gig of DDR ram tiles that are cache size is not a coincidence.

There is no secret sauce what so ever. Microsoft has been very open about their hardware. They have basically stated that their hardware is designed to move Tiles around. The only problem you are having is that you do not understand the modern deferred rendering pipeline. Yes, the X1 is designed to streamline Tiles through the system. The X1 accomplishes with efficiency what the PS4 tries to accomplish with brute force.

Save it, man. Anything that shines a positive light on Microsoft's newest console is, by default, "secret sauce," at least according to the usual suspects.
 
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Save it, man. Anything that shines a positive light on Microsoft's newest console is, by default, "secret sauce," at least according to the usual suspects.

I also post because I want to understand. Writing that information out is a good way to sort out the details that I know in my head, and also as I work through the pipeline it exposes things that I do not know.
 
If someone told me the same thing was in a PS4, I would still call it special sauce. It's strung together with conspiracy theories based on dev quotes, misunderstanding MS tech presentations, attacking AMD engineers and patch notes, hand waving away any requests for evidence, and claims of "PS4 being at a significant disadvantage".

There's almost no difference between these claims and something dredged up from misterx's blog. Same amount of evidence, same plausibility, same rationale and logic. The only diff. is some of you are bizarrely taking it seriously, just as a reaction to someone you dislike using logic, reason, skepticism, and evidence to call a spade a spade.

And once again, tiled texture techniques gives devs more effective memory size and bandwidth, plus some side benefits like cheaper anisotropic filtering and better LoD scaling. But it doesn't make the GPU any better at actually rendering things. You can bring a GPU to its knees with a 4k size texture just by rendering 5 billion polys with that texture applied to it. It's not some magical thing that will double a system's effective TF count.

If there is a difference in how the two consoles handle tiled texturing tasks, it's likely to be small imo.
 
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