Beginning of the End for Game Ownership?

This is the exact point I brought up in the EA Access thread. I have absolutely no problem with a digital copy of a game, song, movie etc. My issue comes with the fact that once you were to stop paying for the service you lose access to the item, which means you continually have to pay for a service that in the end might end up costing you more than if you were to just outright purchase said item. And where does it end? What happens if the price continues to rise and now it's $50 a year? Or if games get shorter or they start adding additional fees to access more levels or whatever in a game? Will this ever happen? Maybe or maybe not, but I believe it's worth bringing up and talking about it.
 
starseeker said:
Why the hostility. Its a bit uncalled for if you asked me.

How is this silly when there a real life scenarios. People who work on ships, subs, oversea deployments etc. Its not a huge percentage, for sure, but there are people who do not have internet connection for long period (& I am not talking about 3rd world nations).

In any case, I never said it was a major point, I am saying its a valid point. Why do you think a lot of resentment of the DRM came form the military?

I have been though this, so no, my console is not connected to the internet as much as my PC, during the period when I am confined to a barrack with only weekends off, if I was lucky.

Maybe the point about PC games still easy to pirate is true. The already low price on stream sales do make pirating a game dicky.
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If your a huge company like MS or Sony, are you really going to worry about the what?, 2% of people who take their consoles on the road with them? Naah. Naah mane. They may be real life scenarios but there aren't enough people who do such a thing to worry about. Most consoles stay connected to the internet without ever being disconnected unless their service drops, which may happen occasionally. Thats what was so funny about the DRM charade: people damn near went on a witch hunt for Microsoft when most peoples consoles stay connected to the internet anyway.
 
I think gamers are ready for an all digital future, but is the US broadband infrastructure? I would hate to see game sizes, which continue to get huge, be purposely limited because it.
 
Kerosene31 said:
These points are mostly true, but still have nothing to do with DD on consoles. If games are removed from Steam, they go away too. I can only think of one game ever getting pulled from XBL - I think it was Doom 2. Even then, if you bought it, you could still download it.

There's only two simple reasons that DD hasn't taken off on consoles yet:
-People fear change
-There hasn't been a lot of good price breaks
(I would probably add a 3rd - no pre-loading option yet)

I don't own a PS so I can't comment on PSN, but I would guess that when XBL offers games for $5 or so DD that people are all over it. I just bought Arkham City off XBL for $5. I don't even have time to play it right now as my 360 backlog is huge, but for $5 it is a no-brainer. For $5 am I going to worry about not "owning" the game? Of course not.
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If DD-only games are removed from Steam, the games will still exist on the internet via illegitimate means as I have mentioned. The PC gaming community will make sure of it. Reacquisition and installation of forever-removed DD Steam games will be very possible and easy on PC whilst consoles will always be the contrary. Hell, you still need a PC to even acquire and procure yourself an illegitimate copy of a console game. Double Hell, you can acquire and play games on PC that were never even released on PC like Zelda: OoT and Final Fantasy X via amazing emulators. But you will never get to play ARMA 3 on a console unless the developers puts it on that platform. The PS4 and X1 will only even play legacy console games without explicit work done on the console maker's part. And meanwhile, I'm playing Super Mario on a tablet. That's the power of PC.

But even if it was a perfect world where a game would remain part of a service forever and never be removed, a DD-only console will still have major limitations to its service unlike Steam for the simple fact that consoles are all about control (see Xbox One Always-ON fiasco and Wii's digital games travesty). Microsoft wanted a 24hr game-checking system implemented along with restricting resale of the game, and this would all hampered gamers' ownership of the game. That was Microsoft's scary vision of your rights on games, and you would have little or no control over that. Thankfully Sony wasn't on-board with Microsoft on this or it would have been a reality. Steam however will never do this because their is no benefit for Valve or PC developers due to the nature of PC's ecosystem. Valve's Steam service operates the wondrous way it does because of PC gaming piracy and the open nature of Windows shaping its ecosystem. Piracy is terrible, but it is what made Steam possible to exist. PC is a completely different ecosystem, and Valve and developers treat it as such. The result is cheap ass games on Steam in an attempt to take away from piracy and earn the developer some extra cash, and Valve is sitting comfortably in their position. Piracy is different on consoles, and that reflects the lack of a console version of 'Steam sales' existing and the lack of DRM-free games. As already announced by CDProjekt Red, Witcher 3 will be completely DRM-free as a result of the unique ecosystem PC has, and this is a start for a new trend in PC gaming. You will never see DRM-free games in this way come to console.

Simply put, gamers on consoles will never have the benefit over gamers on PC when it comes to digital distribution by far, and this is way it's okay for DD-only on PC way more so than console.
 
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Kerosene31 said:
Please just stop. The "I want to take my console on vacation" argument is silly. Your console is connected to the internet as much as your PC unless your entire internet goes down.

Piracy has nothing to do with it either. It is very easy to pirate Steam games. Steam's DRM does little to combat that.
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You are not understanding at all. Steam doesn't deter piracy by implementing some advanced DRM. It does so by making games so cheap that piracy is seen as a hassle.
 
Mcmasters said:
If your a huge company like MS or Sony, are you really going to worry about the what?, 2% of people who take their consoles on the road with them? Naah. Naah mane. They may be real life scenarios but there aren't enough people who do such a thing to worry about. Most consoles stay connected to the internet without ever being disconnected unless their service drops, which may happen occasionally. Thats what was so funny about the DRM charade: people damn near went on a witch hunt for Microsoft when most peoples consoles stay connected to the internet anyway.
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No. People went on a which hunt because MS proposed a plan that required an internet check once every 24 hours. What if you move and it takes them two days to get out an install your internet? You're just supposed to suck it up and not play the console and games you paid to play? What if your internet goes out for several hours just before the required check? What if you go on vacation for a week to a secluded cabin or similar place? You're just supposed to leave your console at home because you're not allowed to play it?

All this while every other established DD service doesn't have these restrictions. When I moved back to Michigan last year I was two days without internet and guess what Steam wanted to do... can you guess?

It wanted me to restart in offline mode.

Something that you wouldn't be able to do with the plan MS was pushing at the time.
 
Guys,

So for the Xbox One, you buy a disk and download the game from the server for install to your machine. Is that correct? A friend of mine was saying that.

Also, then your purchased game is forever linked to your gamer tag right? You can't sell it to anyone.

Can an Xbox One owner please confirm for me? That sounds like we are already at digital download if it's true.
 
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Z A C K said:
Yeah I didn't mean fully like Netflix in the sense of streaming, I meant more like the EA Access concept. But in the future, say 10 years from now, maybe streaming will be viable.
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Streaming is not really the issue. It is the latency that is a killer for this distribution method.
 
Mcmasters said:
If your a huge company like MS or Sony, are you really going to worry about the what?, 2% of people who take their consoles on the road with them? Naah. Naah mane. They may be real life scenarios but there aren't enough people who do such a thing to worry about. Most consoles stay connected to the internet without ever being disconnected unless their service drops, which may happen occasionally. Thats what was so funny about the DRM charade: people damn near went on a witch hunt for Microsoft when most peoples consoles stay connected to the internet anyway.
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I never said its a major point, I said its a valid point, you know, a positive (even though its not the case for everyone)for console. Having a physical copy, even if it cost more is an option for people, who otherwise can't play a console.

I am no way not supporting DD, since I have done that, & will continue to do so on my PC, & consoles. I am saying its good to still have possibility of physical game, & explained why.
 
No thanks. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Once gaming goes full digital i'll quit and just play my old games. Or not game at all anymore.
 
I'll always favor physical over digital, even PC games if it's a good deal.
 
Gwyn / Razor said:
So Vall,

Is that right? Are you confirming?
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No. That's what MS originally announced they were going to do with the One, but caved to public outcry. Now it just works as it always has, you buy a disk and can do with it what you please. Just goes to show how all their 180's still have the public confused and misinformed.
 
Obscene Jester said:
No. That's what MS originally announced they were going to do with the One, but caved to public outcry. Now it just works as it always has, you buy a disk and can do with it what you please. Just goes to show how all their 180's still have the public confused and misinformed.
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Correct I missed the one part of what he said...:crazy:
 
Obscene Jester said:
No. That's what MS originally announced they were going to do with the One, but caved to public outcry. Now it just works as it always has, you buy a disk and can do with it what you please. Just goes to show how all their 180's still have the public confused and misinformed.
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Thanks Jester. Yeah my friend must be behind the news
 
Kassen said:
But even if it was a perfect world where a game would remain part of a service forever and never be removed, a DD-only console will still have major limitations to its service unlike Steam for the simple fact that consoles are all about control (see Xbox One Always-ON fiasco and Wii's digital games travesty). Microsoft wanted a 24hr game-checking system implemented along with restricting resale of the game, and this would all hampered gamers' ownership of the game. That was Microsoft's scary vision of your rights on games, and you would have little or no control over that. Thankfully Sony wasn't on-board with Microsoft on this or it would have been a reality. Steam however will never do this because their is no benefit for Valve or PC developers due to the nature of PC's ecosystem. Valve's Steam service operates the wondrous way it does because of PC gaming piracy and the open nature of Windows shaping its ecosystem. Piracy is terrible, but it is what made Steam possible to exist. PC is a completely different ecosystem, and Valve and developers treat it as such. The result is cheap ass games on Steam in an attempt to take away from piracy and earn the developer some extra cash, and Valve is sitting comfortably in their position. Piracy is different on consoles, and that reflects the lack of a console version of 'Steam sales' existing and the lack of DRM-free games. As already announced by CDProjekt Red, Witcher 3 will be completely DRM-free as a result of the unique ecosystem PC has, and this is a start for a new trend in PC gaming. You will never see DRM-free games in this way come to console.
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I don't think piracy is nearly as big a deal as you make it out. Do people pirate PC games? Sure. I don't think that drives down the price though.

You can pirate console games too. Sure, it takes more work, but if XBL ever did go away, you know someone would come up with something that would let us play games. (not that it will happen).

I think we'll see lower prices on older DD games on consoles. We already are on both systems. Not close to Steam yet, but I think both Sony and MS along with publishers will figure out that the Steam model works.

I don't even know why you are bringing up the policies that MS reversed. It has nothing to do with anything. I don't even know what Steam's check-in time is because it doesn't matter. I'm not compelled to pull out my network cable for no reason.

There are differences between console and PC, but most of them don't have to be there. Your post explains my point perfectly, gamers think there is a huge difference, forcing companies to treat each differently.

Why couldn't MS, PS and publishers:
-Lower the prices on games just like Steam?
-Offer a reasonable DRM system like Steam?
-Allow us to download mods for games?

There's no reason the console systems couldn't be like PCs.

I've made the point multiple times, but it it worth repeating. I remember back in 2004 when Steam came out. PC gamers absolutely HATED it. I went through it too. I bought Orange Box on DVD and rushed home to install it without reading the box. Well, this DRM thing called Steam installed and I was like WTF?? I didn't want it. I didn't choose it. It was different and I didn't like it. That's why consoles are "different". Console gamers need to go through that same transition.
 
Piracy on PC cannot be downplayed. It has been a serious issue that forced Crytek to go multiplat and convinced EA and Ubisoft to implement horrid DRM in attempts to stop it. Piracy on PC is so easy that you can literally play games from other platforms with ease. And it is not comparable to the minority of people having to painfully JTAG their console and the small community holding it up. I don't think I've even heard of someone playing Zelda on an Xbox 360. Piracy is way tougher on consoles, and it shows.

Regularly dirt-cheap prices on par with Steam are not possible on consoles. Steam sales are only possible on PC because of low PC sales created by piracy among other reasons. Publishers would go bankrupt trying to do this with the already thriving console game sales of platforms that have little piracy on them.

And regardless if Microsoft can or will offer reasonable DRM like Steam, it is always in Microsoft's hand to do and we are at their whim, and there is no guarantee it lightweight DRM will always be in place. If Sony ever jumps on the bandwagon, we just have to beg MS to spare us, and for the reason that we also know Microsoft's end-goal is the strictest control and strictest DRM on both retail and digital distribution and sales. Because DRM is way more effective on consoles, and Microsoft knows it. On the other hand with PC, Steam DRM is lightweight and minimalistic because Valve understands DRM on PC is very ineffective, contrary to consoles as always.

Consoles are a locked box. Freedoms will always be limited on a console. Every PC gamer knows this too well.
 
Kassen said:
Regularly dirt-cheap prices on par with Steam are not possible on consoles. Steam sales are only possible on PC because of low PC sales created by piracy among other reasons. Publishers would go bankrupt trying to do this with the already thriving console game sales of platforms that have little piracy on them.
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Sorry, but you know nothing about PC gaming. You pretend like PC gaming is just a tiny part of the overall market. Guess what? 4.5+ million people are playing games on Steam right now. The peak was 6.5 million.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

I actually thought PC gaming was on the way down, but it isn't. It is thriving.
 
Kerosene31 said:
Sorry, but you know nothing about PC gaming. You pretend like PC gaming is just a tiny part of the overall market. Guess what? 4.5+ million people are playing games on Steam right now. The peak was 6.5 million.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

I actually thought PC gaming was on the way down, but it isn't. It is thriving.
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It's thriving because of Steam. You knew that was my point. I never pretended there aren't a lot of PC gamers. My point was about sales. Don't jump to those conclusions like that.
 
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Gwyn / Razor said:
Guys,

So for the Xbox One, you buy a disk and download the game from the server for install to your machine. Is that correct? A friend of mine was saying that.

Also, then your purchased game is forever linked to your gamer tag right? You can't sell it to anyone.

Can an Xbox One owner please confirm for me? That sounds like we are already at digital download if it's true.
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No. It works like before now. Buy the game and can re-sell used without doing anything and that's the way it should be. Simple.
 
starseeker said:
I do not download songs simply because my car cannot play them. No external media connection. I am also not the type that listen to song while I work, or doing stuff.
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Your telling me that nice BMW you drive does not have a radio in it with a aux port to plug your media device into?? Lol. JK. I totally understand in circumstances like that
 
You know what's really sad? Is that Counter Strike 1.6 has over 20,000 concurrent players right now, a game that's over a decade old. What decade old online console games has 20k players right now? None because they all get shut down, which is a damn shame.
 
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Could an argument be made that console used games sales are as bad as PC piracy? In both cases the developer doesn't see money.
 
If you read the standard EULA on most games, publishers already state you are purchasing the right to play the game, not the game itself. They've wanted to move to a subscription model for decades. Really only within the last 5 years has connectivity and public opinion gotten to a place where it can actually work. I will be watching EA's new offering closely ... the idea of being able to pay a fee monthly and play the latest sports games does sound appealing on the surface, but I will have to see the fine print and do the math to see if it actually amounts to savings.
 
Viktor said:
Could an argument be made that console used games sales are as bad as PC piracy? In both cases the developer doesn't see money.
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Nope, the majority of the money gained by the customer trading in their games is used to buy new games.
 
Viktor said:
I'll always favor physical over digital, even PC games if it's a good deal.
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Most people with common sense would. No offense to the people who support digital but the only people truly benefiting from it are the developers who don't want to spend money on physical media. It's total bulls***.
 
I'm going to laugh 20 years from now when kids don't even know what a game disc is. I completely embrace the future unlike a lot of people it seems.
 
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