Commentary on JRPGs, WRPGs

[Andy]

From:
http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/07...rpgs-future-skirts-and-hentai-style-graphics/

[Comments in brackets and italics from me. - Andy]

During Bandai Namco’s RPG panel at Anime Expo, Tales of Berseria Producer Yasuhiro Fukaya, Sword Art Online Producer Yosuke Futami and God Eater Producer Yosuke Tomizawa shared a few interesting thoughts about their games and JRPG in general.

Futami-san shared that while developing Sword Art Online: Hollow Realization, the team had issues with some skirts that weren’t long enough, showing a bit too much underneath. On the other hand, Tomizawa-san mentioned that they didn’t have the problem with the God Eater series, since they already gave up on solving it, so you can freely check out under the skirts.

[Of course, they have to deal with the up-the-skirt controversies first, lol]

Fukaya-san feels that JRPGs and western RPGs are now fusing together. For instance The Witcher 3: Wild Hunthas a really huge open world, but still has really deep character stories. Even in Fallout 4 they added personalities to the characters.

[Bioware has been focusing on characterization forever; I wonder why they don't mention them, and why they seem to be saying character development is something specific to JRPGs, just recently coming to WRPGs.]

On the other hand, looking at JRPGs, In Xenoblade Chronicles X you can enjoy the character drama, but the main character is a player-created avatar. There are also really large open world like Final Fantasy XV. Those are examples of JRPGs that lean towards the western market. Because of that, he feels that JRPGs and western RPGs are getting a lot closer to each other.

Tomizawa-san feels that in JRPGs the characters are the most important elements. JRPGs delve deeply in the relationships between characters and between characters and player. Some complain that in JRPGs there is only one long storyline, but that allows to define the personalities of the characters with a lot of depth, showing how they change and how they communicate. A lot of resources are used on the characters while making a JRPG.

[That sounds weird to me. If this is really the most important element of JRPGs, I think they need to really increase the level they're working at. When I think about the things that turn me off of JRPGs -- the things I don't like about them -- it is the characters themselves that are often near the top of the list. They are so cheesy and annoying.]

According to Tomizawa-san, a key element for the future of JRPGs is improving the graphics, not towards the realistic style western games use, but the visual style should be improved towards the “hentai style.”

Tomizawa-san actually did not explain what he meant with a “hentai style” for visuals. The term in Japanese means “pervert,” and it’s normally used (almost exclusively in the west) to identify anime with erotic contents. My guess is that Tomizawa-san meant to indicate a visually appealing anime-like style, but this is just my speculation, at least until I get a chance to (hopefully) ask him.

[lol]


Top 10 JRPGs coming in 2016 and beyond:




Personally, I've been wanting to try a JRPG. Haven't found one to my taste for a long time. I could count the number of JRPGs I really enjoyed on one hand -- hell, on two fingers. I was hoping Star Ocean might turn out okay, but that seems like it's only fit for the people who love that series and can tolerate its foibles. I doubt FFXV is going to be my cup of tea. Nioh looks good but a bit too Dark Souls-ey and grim for me. I'm hoping that either Persona or Nier suit me. Dragon Quest, too, maybe.

 

[TDbank24]

It's all about Persona 5 and Kingdom Hearts 3 for me when it comes to JRPGs.

 

[wshowers]

Persona is really an acquired taste. And Nier is just weird. Might I suggest starting with some classic JRPGS to get you into the genre?

 

[Kassen]

Andy Try the Okage: The Shadow King. It's a PS2 classic and is available via emulation on the PS4 for like $15 in the PSN store. It's got great dialogue and humour. Resonance of Fate is a bit of an unorthodox game but has great characters and gameplay that would appeal to a Western audience albeit the story itself falls flat.

 

[postaboy]

I thought Tales of [insert title] is great, but I'm waiting for Dragon Quest XI and Ni No Kuni 2.

Maybe try last gen JRPGs? Ni No Kuni was one of the best JRPGs I played last gen. I'm kicking myself till this day for not picking the collector's edition for $100 pre-order -- It's currently going for $400+ on eBay.

 

[Andy]

Persona is really an acquired taste. And Nier is just weird. Might I suggest starting with some classic JRPGS to get you into the genre?

Nier is one of the two fingers I mentioned. I played the first and liked it, largely because of how varied and strange it felt. That's one of the things I like about some JRPGs -- they completely baffle me with their oddness and eccentricity. So that's one of the things that appeals to me about Nier.

Persona is in the same camp -- it appeals because of how unique and weird it looks. I'm not sure whether I'll actually like it or not. I love the trailers and the art style. I'm not sure about the playing-as-a-high-schooler part. I'm a little beyond that. But I plan to give the game a shot.

I've tried several traditional JRPGs. I can't remember half their names, but I know that there have been a few FF's in there, the original Kingdom Hearts, the first Dark Cloud, Blue Dragon, and (I think?) one of the Dragon Quest games. I don't think I'm cut out for straight, traditional JRPGs. I really don't like turn-based fighting, random encounters, level grinding, games that go on forever, cheesy characters, etc. It is the JRPGs that break from the traditional mold that I tend to like.

The other JRPG I liked was Lost Odyssey on the 360. There was also a 3rd one, a JRPG-ish game with western stylings (might have even been developed by a western team), released for the original Xbox (?) that I liked ok ... although I can't remember its name. It was pretty generic.

Andy Try the Okage: The Shadow King. It's a PS2 classic and is available via emulation on the PS4 for like $15 in the PSN store. It's got great dialogue and humour. Resonance of Fate is a bit of an unorthodox game but has great characters and gameplay that would appeal to a Western audience albeit the story itself falls flat.

I'll check out Okage, thanks for the suggestion. I'm really looking for something more modern, though, rather than going back to PS2 era. My interest is piqued because there are so many JRPGs coming out for the PS4 in the near future. I'm focused more on trying to find something in that pack.

I thought Tales of [insert title] is great, but I'm waiting for Dragon Quest XI and Ni No Kuni 2.

Maybe try last gen JRPGs? Ni No Kuni was one of the best JRPGs I played last gen. I'm kicking myself till this day for not picking the collector's edition for $100 pre-order -- It's currently going for $400+ on eBay.

I think I remember passing on Ni No Kuni last gen, after checking it out. Not sure why. Maybe too traditional? I'll take a second look, though; thanks for the suggestion.

 

[u2popmofo]

I bought Odin Sphere: Leifthrasir over the weekend. Want to finish Uncharted 4 first before starting it, but really looking forward to it.

 

[Intellivision]

According to Tomizawa-san, a key element for the future of JRPGs is improving the graphics, not towards the realistic style western games use, but the visual style should be improved towards the “hentai style.”

Tomizawa-san actually did not explain what he meant with a “hentai style” for visuals. The term in Japanese means “pervert,” and it’s normally used (almost exclusively in the west) to identify anime with erotic contents. My guess is that Tomizawa-san meant to indicate a visually appealing anime-like style, but this is just my speculation, at least until I get a chance to (hopefully) ask him.

Well, that explains why JRPGs have scantily clad Anime style female who look like they are 12 years old. LOL

Aside from that, I'd say around the early 90s is when WRPGs blew away JRPGs.

The advantage of JRPGs decades ago was that they were on console. So what you got was colourful, fast moving games that were easy to control. The visuals in all gaming at the time was so crude that a console game's sprites probably looked better than an Apple II or C64 stick figure monster. And they definitely animated better. No RPG at that time animated as smooth as Phantasy Star II with some nice effects and parallax scrolling.

And console games back then had much better music and sound. Even the crudest tunes were better than whatever honks, beeps and buzzers a computer did back then through those "awesome built in PC speakers". A clock radio sounded better.

It's when I played Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 where the Wow Factor really came into effect. No more overhead turn-based stick figure art. It was action, RPG, real time all in 3D. Jump, strafe, swim, you name it. Even type notes on the map.

Computer gaming back then was no different than now.... more complex than JRPGs, more customizing, more stats and specs, and much bigger in scope. The problem was that back then it was all turn-based (despite PCs being more powerful than consoles they couldn't handle fast moving sprites well), some games had awful visuals and sound, and some of those ancient games literally had black and white lines for mazes. It was an acquired taste. It felt like half adventure game, half WWII simulation game.

Fast forward to the 90s, and JRPGs look better and sound better, but the core game is still pretty much the same. Western games look and sound better too and beyond as 3D cards came around. Then you add in real time 3D worlds and it blows away JRPG. So Western games can finally try their hand at realistic visuals... though still crude with Pentiums and Voodoo cards. Add in Soundblaster audio cards and a PC could finally have sound quality similar to Genesis/SNES. SNES had phenomenal sound for a 1990/1991 gadget. I don't think there was a PC sound card on market that could match it. And if so, it probably cost $300.

Now in the 2010+ era, I don't see their styles much different than 20 years ago, aside from much improved visuals, pacing, UI, and some have MP elements. WRPGs still go for scope, grittier visuals and customization (although Witcher you are pigeon holed as Geralt). JRPGs are still Anime based and have familiar gameplay. Heck, I'm sure some JRPGs still have dialogue boxes that are blue with white text.

 

[Z A C K]

I just want a proper Dragon Quest, like 8.

 

[hrudey]

The easiest way to sum up the distinction between JRPG and WRPG, though it is an oversimplification, is that a WRPG is generally a game where you're playing with your character, while a JRPG is a game where you're playing with their character.

 

[Viktor]

I want a new Legend of Legaia. That was one of my first JRPGs.

 

[Almighty_bob]

Throw the Grandia games in there. Their stories aren't anything special, but man their combat system was super fun.

Best JRPG combat system ever IMO

 

[Frozpot]

The easiest way to sum up the distinction between JRPG and WRPG, though it is an oversimplification, is that a WRPG is generally a game where you're playing with your character, while a JRPG is a game where you're playing with their character.

I'd much rather play as an actual character (like Geralt), than the host body you inhabit in some WRPGs, though. End of the day, they just provide different kinds of roles. One has you in the role of a specific character with their own personality, the other is "you" being transported there. Both have their own merits, but there is very little "character" in the sort of Skyrim Husk.

Then you have the exceptions where you still create a character, but they still exhibit independent personality and the player (to an extent) via choices ala Mass Effect. That's not much different than Geralt though, as they still have a distinct personality regardless of chosen paths.

 

[Andy]

I prefer the first-person, blank-slate approach used by Bethesda. I find that more immersive than being slotted into a pre-defined character like Geralt. The blankness (and first-person perspective) enables you to imagine yourself as the main character, whereas, if you have Geralt standing there, it's clear that you are playing as a character who is not you. Witcher certainly has a lot of things to recommend it, but in terms of immersion in and ownership of the main character itself, I prefer the feel of Bethesda and Bioware games. Witcher is more JRPGish, in that sense (as hrudey points out).

I can see the virtues of both styles, but I grew up with the blank-slate style and find it easy to immerse myself in that. Whereas, with pre-defined characters, I often find the characters themselves a barrier to immersion (that was the case with Geralt in Witcher 2, for example). It's especially true in JRPGs, because the main characters can often be spikey-hair teens, trendy, cutesy, or something else annoying, and so I'm reluctant to "play as" them.

 

[Andy]

I just want a proper Dragon Quest, like 8.

Dragon Quest XI is coming, which looks to be a standard DQ game. I wasn't aware of it until I saw it mentioned in that video (at 0:46). No release date yet.

 

[sharkboy1200]

The last RPG I played was Skyrim, and I had a ton of fun with it until I got infected by a vampire and didn't realize that curing myself had a time limit. Haven't really played the game since then to be frank because I went past that time limit and have to go all the way back to a previous save. Still, I love the feeling and atmosphere provided by Bethesda. It goes hand in hand with Brutal Legend and Red Dead Redemption as some of the most finely crafted open worlds I could ever explore in. To be frank, it's not a feeling I get when I play a JRPG style game. Don't get me wrong, I can enjoy the classic turn based or action/slash style, but the worlds often leave me feeling less than satisfied. I agree that both genres have taken notes from each other and will continue to do so, but there's something about JRPGs that feel less exciting. Maybe it's just my inability to enjoy the anime style like I used to in my younger years, or that the more simple versions of the JRPG prove to be the most rewarding for me entertainment wise, but I'm splitting hairs here. My inability to enjoy most JRPGs derive mainly from my tastes in aesthetic and storytelling, so it's a bit unfair that the core fans of the genre might get shafted in terms of getting proper games. That said, the Dark/Demon Souls & Bloodborne games seem to raised from this marriage of adopting JRPG/WRPG concepts into one game. It's certainly a more visually appealing game in certain ways for sure.

 

[TDbank24]

I'm glad i'm not picky. I like all types of RPGs. Basically i've never played an RPG that i didn't enjoy, whether it be a WRPG or a JRPG.

 

[Andy]

I'm glad i'm not picky. I like all types of RPGs. Basically i've never played an RPG that i didn't enjoy, whether it be a WRPG or a JRPG.

No kidding. That surprises me. There are some real turkeys out there.

 

[Z A C K]

Dragon Quest XI is coming, which looks to be a standard DQ game. I wasn't aware of it until I saw it mentioned in that video (at 0:46). No release date yet.

Oh wow, I hadn't seen that either. That looks like more of what I'm talking about. Hope it comes to the US. Too bad not on X1 but to me that series is a system seller if it's done right.

 

[The Wolf King]

Give me Lost Odyssey 2 already.

Last gen was rather good for these games actually.

 

[Kassen]

Give me Lost Odyssey 2 already.

Last gen was rather good for these games actually.

Turn based JRPG with great graphics right here. It's not Lost Odyssey but still looks great.

 

[wshowers]

Give me Lost Odyssey 2 already.

Last gen was rather good for these games actually.

You know that's not happening. Mistwalker and MS have moved on unfortunately. Its too bad though. While LO was a pretty by the number JRPG what set it apart for me was the " memories of 1000 years" that by itself was worth the price of admission.

 

[wshowers]

Andy Based on what you like and prefer, its hard to recommend a JRPG that you'll like. There really isn't a JRPG that offers the blank state experience and forgoes the anime and japan-centric troupes that have become a staple of the genre. The best I can think of is Xenoblade Chronicles X. But with that, its more about gameplay than story.

 

[Andy]

Andy Based on what you like and prefer, its hard to recommend a JRPG that you'll like. There really isn't a JRPG that offers the blank state experience and forgoes the anime and japan-centric troupes that have become a staple of the genre. The best I can think of is Xenoblade Chronicles X. But with that, its more about gameplay than story.

Oh, that's ok, I'm not really looking for suggestions in this thread, although I'm getting a lot of them, and I'm not really expecting JRPGs to resemble WRPGs. In fact, one of the things that appeals to me about JPRGs is their weirdness and eccentricity -- the way they are different than WRPGs and even most Western games. Although I like WRPGs, they do have a lot of similarity and sameness to them, and after playing through a couple dozen, I sort of know what to expect. JRPGs offer something new and unique. For instance, compare Persona or Nier to one of a dozen sword-and-scorcery WRPGs. Those JRPGs seem fresh and unique to me. That's what I'm hoping for -- a JRPG with plenty of eccentricity, but lacking the main negatives I associate with the genre (cheesy characters, bad dialog, turn-based fighting). I'm hoping either Nier or Persona deliver.

 

[Andy]

Oh wow, I hadn't seen that either. That looks like more of what I'm talking about. Hope it comes to the US. Too bad not on X1 but to me that series is a system seller if it's done right.

I did a little reading on it. It's targeted for Japanese release before May 2017, but given the series' history of multiple delays, it might be later than that. When it eventually does release in Japan, it'll probably be another year before it is released in the States. So, Spring 2018 at the earliest, with a possible/probable delay to late 2018, maybe even 2019. We'll see it eventually, but probably not anytime soon.

 

[TDbank24]

No kidding. That surprises me. There are some real turkeys out there.

Well, i haven't played them all so that can change. I don't know, i just feel like if a game's controls aren't broken and it runs fine i'm there. Especially with RPGs, they're just the cream of the crop for me. When i play other games, usually i realize i'm playing a video game. When i'm playing a great RPG i forget that i have another life to go back to when the game gets shut off. I love those experiences.

 

[Andy]

Especially with RPGs, they're just the cream of the crop for me. When i play other games, usually i realize i'm playing a video game. When i'm playing a great RPG i forget that i have another life to go back to when the game gets shut off. I love those experiences.

Yeah, I understand that. I feel the same way. I get really immersed in a good RPG. That doesn't usually happen in other types of games.

 

[hrudey]

I want a new Legend of Legaia. That was one of my first JRPGs.

That's a blast from the past. I don't remember much of anything of that game other than there was Mist of some sort that, what, turned people into monsters maybe? Mostly I just remember that's what I was playing while I was seeing this woman who turned out in the end to be a real bitch (which, I guess, makes this a game from 18+ years ago. Holy mother of f***, I am getting old).

 

[hrudey]

Well, i haven't played them all so that can change. I don't know, i just feel like if a game's controls aren't broken and it runs fine i'm there. Especially with RPGs, they're just the cream of the crop for me. When i play other games, usually i realize i'm playing a video game. When i'm playing a great RPG i forget that i have another life to go back to when the game gets shut off. I love those experiences.

I get that with games that tell a compelling story, whether RPG or not (for example, I simply could not turn off Bioshock Infinite the last few hours and go to bed even at like 4:30 AM after a long-ass day, because I had to get to the conclusion). RPGs generally tend to do more story and do it better, so they're the ones who have that kind of appeal.

Of course, I also get that way with the "one more turn" type of games, especially Civ and Football Manager, but that's more of a self-made story that you're developing as you play and so it carries you along as well.

 

[Andy]

I get that with games that tell a compelling story, whether RPG or not (for example, I simply could not turn off Bioshock Infinite the last few hours and go to bed even at like 4:30 AM after a long-ass day, because I had to get to the conclusion). RPGs generally tend to do more story and do it better, so they're the ones who have that kind of appeal.

Of course, I also get that way with the "one more turn" type of games, especially Civ and Football Manager, but that's more of a self-made story that you're developing as you play and so it carries you along as well.

For me at least, the quality of immersion is different. It's a different sort of immersion. In a game with a good story (Last of Us, let's say), I'm very engaged with the characters and the story. I care about Joel and Ellie, and I want to see what happens next. I'm immersed in that sense. But with RPGs (I think of Fallout, Skyrim, or Mass Effect), I'm immersed in the world itself, and I feel myself a part of the world. It's a different type of immersion. It's not so much about immersion in the story as about immersion in the world.