E3 2014 shows no new innovation, no killer apps.

Andy said:
Still doesn't really address what I'm saying, though, which is businesses don't succeed by innovating what they want, according to their agenda -- they succeed by providing what the market wants. Blaming gamers is kind of ridiculous, imo. You wouldn't get very far in business with that mindset, and fortunately for all of us, Microsoft knows better than to do that.

As for the TV TV thing, that's another area where you and others are failing to make a rather obvious distinction. Do you not see the difference in the two scenarios? In one case, it was a reveal event -- the time when you're showing the world your new console for the very first time, the big unvieling, the big chance to make a great first and lasting impression, and you come out with TV TV TV. In the second, it is 10 or 15 minutes of discussion in a 90 to 120 minute press conference, a year into the console lifecycle, way beyond the unveiling, and at a point where they actually need to demonstrate some strength in that area.

Now if you can't see the difference in those two scenarios, I don't know what to tell you. It's clear as day.
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What gamers want is canned sequels (at least based on sales). Everyone seems to hate COD, yet the game sells tons of copies. What people say they want and what they actually buy are often not the same.

The TV thing at last year's E3 was overblown. MS showed a good amount of games, as much as Sony (launch lineups are always weak so neither was impressive). Just because someone edited a youtube video of them saying TV over and over doesn't make it true.

People just love hating on MS. Sorry, but that's just a simple fact. When a multiplat game runs at a lower resolution on X1, people pile on. When multiplats run at the same resolution between platforms, the game "sucks", "doesn't count", and/or "looks ugly anyway".
 
Andy said:
Still doesn't really address what I'm saying, though, which is businesses don't succeed by innovating what they want, according to their agenda -- they succeed by providing what the market wants. Blaming gamers is kind of ridiculous, imo. You wouldn't get very far in business with that mindset, and fortunately for all of us, Microsoft knows better than to do that.

As for the TV TV thing, that's another area where you and others are failing to make a rather obvious distinction. Do you not see the difference in the two scenarios? In one case, it was a reveal event -- the time when you're showing the world your new console for the very first time, the big unvieling, the big chance to make a great first and lasting impression, and you come out with TV TV TV. In the second, it is 10 or 15 minutes of discussion in a 90 to 120 minute press conference, a year into the console lifecycle, way beyond the unveiling, and at a point where they actually need to demonstrate some strength in that area.

Now if you can't see the difference in those two scenarios, I don't know what to tell you. It's clear as day.
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Negative.

The scenario with TV and other forms of entertainment should garner the same response across the board with gamers on each platform. However, this was not the case. If it were, the same people who whined and complained about TV on the XBO last year would've known that the XBO wasnt just about TV and other forms of entertainment and that the games would surely come about, regardless of what was announced first. Sony gamers harped on the XBO for being about TV TV TV till the cows came home because it shouldve "been about the games". We've heard numerous times how Sony gamers want a "gaming consoles" not an entertainment console. So ultimately, your argument is shot full of holes at this point. Its not that this is about different scenarios, its a case of double standards and moving the goal posts to fit the agenda. Lets just be honest here....

And gamers have no idea what they want. They wouldnt know the first thing about innovative technology if it slapped them in the face. So we must leave it to the console manufacturers to do the thinking for them. To prove this point, we can simply use the XBO first reveal and all of the 180's that have been done because innovation challenged the status quo. And to further prove this, we are now stuck with another generation of the same ol' same ol'. THAT is what the gamers wanted, not MS. They tried to bring a plethora of new and innovative ideas to the table to change things up a bit, to take gaming and entertainment to new heights with new possibilities. But they were tied to the stake for doing so. Only now, because Sony is the one following suit it happens to be okay. That some of the biggest crap I've ever heard of and just shows that gamers have no clue.
 
Mcmasters said:
And gamers have no idea what they want.
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Exactly. How can gamers know what they want and want innovation? How can you want what hasn't been invented yet? :)

I never "wanted" a game with horrible blocky graphics where you dig holes all day, but now I love Minecraft. If they were to preview Minecraft at E3 they'd get laughed off the stage.

What's funny too is that we're already seen a few threads where people want digital rentals and the ability to resell digital games. Guess what? When everyone cried "no DRM" they killed that innovation.

Go on sports game forums and people always say they want a "realistic" game. Most really don't though. Nobody would want an NHL game where tons of shots are blocked and it is hard to even gain the blueline. The AI in NHL backs way off the blueline to let the player in. EA could fix that easy, but people would hate it. Same with Fifa. When do you see a clean break in real soccer? Almost never. However many people love the unrealistically accurate long balls that hit perfectly every time.

The problem is you can't lump "gamers" into one group. As much as some people here love to speak on behalf of every gamer on the planet and think they are always right, this is silly.
 
Mcmasters said:
Negative.

The scenario with TV and other forms of entertainment should garner the same response across the board with gamers on each platform. However, this was not the case. If it were, the same people who whined and complained about TV on the XBO last year would've known that the XBO wasnt just about TV and other forms of entertainment and that the games would surely come about, regardless of what was announced first. Sony gamers harped on the XBO for being about TV TV TV till the cows came home because it shouldve "been about the games". We've heard numerous times how Sony gamers want a "gaming consoles" not an entertainment console. So ultimately, your argument is shot full of holes at this point. Its not that this is about different scenarios, its a case of double standards and moving the goal posts to fit the agenda. Lets just be honest here....

And gamers have no idea what they want. They wouldnt know the first thing about innovative technology if it slapped them in the face. So we must leave it to the console manufacturers to do the thinking for them. To prove this point, we can simply use the XBO first reveal and all of the 180's that have been done because innovation challenged the status quo. And to further prove this, we are now stuck with another generation of the same ol' same ol'. THAT is what the gamers wanted, not MS. They tried to bring a plethora of new and innovative ideas to the table to change things up a bit, to take gaming and entertainment to new heights with new possibilities. But they were tied to the stake for doing so. Only now, because Sony is the one following suit it happens to be okay. That some of the biggest crap I've ever heard of and just shows that gamers have no clue.
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You're not really engaging the distinctions, just negating them and repeating your familiar monolog about poor, innovative Microsoft and how they're the victim of stupid gamers. I find that line of thinking a pointless dead-end, not to mention sort of dense, and so I'll just drop it.
 
Andy said:
You're not really engaging the distinctions, just negating them and repeating your familiar monolog about poor, innovative Microsoft and how they're the victim of stupid gamers. I find that line of thinking a pointless dead-end, not to mention sort of dense, and so I'll just drop it.
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Gee. If you think my response is dense, imagine what I must think of yours. Maybe you're right. Lets just drop it.:)
 
Mcmasters said:
MS innovated on what they wanted because gamers have no idea what they want.
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Congratulations, this sentence wins the most ridiculous statement of the year award for trying to stereotype hundreds of millions of people as not knowing what they want. Really? Really? I think this 'the masses don't know what they want' thing was used as a justification for tyranny in the past too.

Why are there forum threads about our most anticipated games? Why do some games sell better than others? Why are indie games really starting to take off? Why has crowd funding become so popular? If gamers don't know what they want, then why did they reject the Kinect?

I know, for the most part, exactly what I want in a game.

If anything, gamers know what they want and don't now more than ever as the growth in indie games/crowd funding has shown. However, they don't necessarily have the expertise, time, money, resources, etc to actually go out and do it. If gamers didn't have a mind of their own and didn't know what they want/don't want


Not to mention the double standards that we are hearing when it comes to XBO and the 4. If MS talks TV TV TV, or Camera Camera Camera then, gamers and journalists break out in a hate-rash and declare martial law. If Sony does so, then its the coolest thing since Miracle Whip!
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There's no comparison here. Did you even watch Sony's E3 conference this year? Microsoft's entire Xbox One announcement was about TV features and cameras, while the only games they showed were COD and sports. This E3, Sony spent about 10-15 minutes out of their 100 minute press conference talking about things like PS Now and the new PS TV thingy. In both cases, both of these things are still games related. Nevertheless, they were criticized pretty heavily for this segment and many people found it quite boring.

Gamers and the media aren't biased against your precious Microsoft just for the hell of it. Microsoft made several significant missteps with over the last couple of years with the Xbox 360 and the One and pissed off/turned off a lot of people in the process. In case you don't remember, Sony was arrogant and made a lot of mistakes early on with the PS3 and they got pounced on for it by both gamers and the media, allowing the Xbox 360 to erase PS2's advantage from the previous generation. I personally hated Sony and never wanted to support them after watching their infamous PS3 announcement at E3


If people want innovation and added features, you have to have an open mind to new ideas when they are presented to you. But (as we can see just based on this generation alone...) gamers and journalists want the same thing for another generation, not innovation. Yet at the same time, they squabble about "no innovation" or if its presented as a carbon copy by Sony from the MS handbook, then we can talk about how cool the PS camera and Sony TV programs are. Its actually kind of ridiculous at this point.
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What do you call Assassins Creed? What do you call Xbox Live? Or Steam? What do you call Minecraft? What about Titanfall? What about the Batman video game? Or Mass Effect? What about the original Modern Warfare? All of these things were innovative and had new ideas and gamers accepted them! This acceptance allowed these games/services to become the massive successes they are today.

Also, I don't think anybody is talking about how good the PS Camera is. Even the most ardent of fanboys would admit the Kinect 2.0 is better. I also don't see much hype or press coverage for the the PS TV either. But the reasons why neither of these things received much hate was because they are OPTIONAL and weren't shoved in our faces. If you want to buy the PS4, you aren't forced to pay a premium for these extra features.
 
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Kerosene31 said:
What gamers want is canned sequels (at least based on sales). Everyone seems to hate COD, yet the game sells tons of copies. What people say they want and what they actually buy are often not the same.
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If that's what gamers want, then why is Activision investing $500 million in a new franchise? Why did Minecraft sell tens of millions of copies? Why did Watch Dogs just become the fastest selling new IP of all time? Why did League of Legends become so popular? Why was Titanfall the best selling game in March? Why have indie games taken off? Why have original games received so much crowd funding? Why was there a general disappointment among both media members and gamers alike at the lack of new IPs?

If gamers only cared about canned sequels, then why did franchises with such as Guitar Hero and Sonic and Tony Hawk which had canned annual sequels die off due to lack of sales? Why are COD's sales numbers starting to level off?

The TV thing at last year's E3 was overblown. MS showed a good amount of games, as much as Sony (launch lineups are always weak so neither was impressive). Just because someone edited a youtube video of them saying TV over and over doesn't make it true.
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Microsoft's E3 last year was pretty good and showed a lot of games, thought it did get overshadowed by DRM controversies and the higher price tag caused by a Kinect that many saw as worthless.

It was the Xbox One announcement event in May that was all about TV and entertainment with very, very, very little games. Watch that event again and you will see.

People just love hating on MS. Sorry, but that's just a simple fact. When a multiplat game runs at a lower resolution on X1, people pile on. When multiplats run at the same resolution between platforms, the game "sucks", "doesn't count", and/or "looks ugly anyway".
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It goes both ways. Sony screwed up big time at the launch of the PS3 and lots of gamers and media members alike hated on them for being out of touch and arrogant. Not to mention it was widely reported and accepted that most gamers were easier to develop for and ran better on the Xbox 360. This led to the Xbox 360 becoming the console of choice for a lot of gamers and caused the PS3 to lose it's massive, massive lead from the previous console generation.

However, over the course of the last several years, Sony lowered the price of the PS3, gave away lots of 'free games' with PS Plus, kept online multiplayer free, released lots of high quality first party games, and launched a cheaper and more powerful gamer-centric next gen console. Meanwhile over the last 3-4 years, Microsoft seemed overly focused on the Kinect and entertainment, neglected its first party games, overloaded the Xbox dashboard with advertisements, seemed arrogant and out of touch, and introduced a next generation console that was less powerful, more expensive, and seemed less focused on games.
 
Titan to the rescue... :laugh:

I didnt bother reading your post but something told me you'd respond to my post to Andy as I spoke against your beloved 4. Get a grip dude. Its an opinion, and its mine. The end.

Lets stay on track here....Thanks.
 
Mcmasters said:
Titan to the rescue... :laugh:

I didnt bother reading your post but something told me you'd respond to my post to Andy as I spoke against your beloved 4. Get a grip dude. Its an opinion, and its mine. The end.

Lets stay on track here....Thanks.
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I said I personally hated Sony for a good amount of time last generation so I don't know what you are babbling on about. It seems like you have no defense for my responses so you just resort to ridiculous statements.

I don't love the PS4 and I don't love the One. At this point I kind of wish I saved my money and invested in a nice PC actually instead. Nevertheless, I think I've stated to you now 100+ times that I've done 90% of my gaming on Xbox branded consoles and have purchased all 3 at launch. This is the first generation I bought the PS4 at launch. Nevertheless I've spent about 60% of my next gen time on the One and 40% on the PS4. And in my responses to your posts I expressed zero bias toward either console.

It's funny out you love to dish out ridiculous, biased statements, but when people respond you just post a stupid gif., repeat the same old McMasters rhetoric, or shrug the person off/call them a PS4 fanboy.

And stay on track? You are the one that's talking about PS TV and the PS Camera and made it into a Xbox vs PS argument by whining about how everyone loves to hate on MS. Are you really that dull?
 
Mr. Titan said:
I said I personally hated Sony for a good amount of time last generation so I don't know what you are babbling on about. It seems like you have no defense for my responses so you just resort to ridiculous statements.

I don't love the PS4 and I don't love the One. At this point I kind of wish I saved my money and invested in a nice PC actually instead. Nevertheless, I think I've stated to you now 100+ times that I've done 90% of my gaming on Xbox branded consoles and have purchased all 3 at launch. This is the first generation I bought the PS4 at launch. Nevertheless I've spent about 60% of my next gen time on the One and 40% on the PS4. And in my responses to your posts I expressed zero bias toward either console.

It's funny out you love to dish out ridiculous, biased statements, but when people respond you just post a stupid gif., repeat the same old McMasters rhetoric, or shrug the person off/call them a PS4 fanboy.

And stay on track? You are the one that's talking about PS TV and the PS Camera and made it into a Xbox vs PS argument by whining about how everyone loves to hate on MS. Are you really that dull?
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Blah, blah, blah....

What else is on? :cool:

Dude, its not that serious, really. Its just video games man, not the Superbowl in outer space or some chit. Relax about it. I gave an opinion...

[HASHTAG]#dealwithit[/HASHTAG]
 
Mcmasters said:
Blah, blah, blah....

What else is on? :cool:

Dude, its not that serious, really. Its just video games man, not the Superbowl in outer space or some chit. Relax about it. I gave an opinion...

[HASHTAG]#dealwithit[/HASHTAG]
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Says the one who is whining about 'double standards' against Microsoft in a thread about the lack of gaming innovation at E3.
 
That's enough. I don't want to give some "Waaataah!!" to the both of you. McMasters, your subtle antagonizing posts aren't helping either.
 
Mr. Titan said:
If that's what gamers want, then why is Activision investing $500 million in a new franchise? Why did Minecraft sell tens of millions of copies? Why did Watch Dogs just become the fastest selling new IP of all time? Why did League of Legends become so popular? Why was Titanfall the best selling game in March? Why have indie games taken off? Why have original games received so much crowd funding? Why was there a general disappointment among both media members and gamers alike at the lack of new IPs?

If gamers only cared about canned sequels, then why did franchises with such as Guitar Hero and Sonic and Tony Hawk which had canned annual sequels die off due to lack of sales? Why are COD's sales numbers starting to level off?
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The word on Destiny is that the gameplay is very blah and boring. Not really much innovation. Most IPs you mention are not very innovative. Titanfall was cool for a month, then people got bored and moved on. There are countless articles online about the dwindling population in TF.

Indie games are great, but there are tons of them nobody has ever heard of. Only a few ever make it.

COD sales are leveling off? Wow, you mean they are going to have to settle for only selling a bajillion copies every year?
 
Kerosene31 said:
The word on Destiny is that the gameplay is very blah and boring. Not really much innovation. Most IPs you mention are not very innovative. Titanfall was cool for a month, then people got bored and moved on. There are countless articles online about the dwindling population in TF.

Indie games are great, but there are tons of them nobody has ever heard of. Only a few ever make it.

COD sales are leveling off? Wow, you mean they are going to have to settle for only selling a bajillion copies every year?
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Funny, most previews for Destiny I've seen that have come out of E3 have been positive. Heck, go on over to the Destiny Alpha thread in the PS subforum where members from this forum are playing it and giving positive impressions. In fact, I'm playing the game right now and think it's pretty awesome, especially for something that's 4 months out.

And Destiny is innovative, with its mix of online campaign and co-op, what it's trying to do is pretty innovative. Titanfall's wall running and Titan mechanics are also pretty innovative. Same with Minecraft. Even Watch Dog's take on technology is different. And every game doesn't necessarily need to be innovative and different to be good and fun, a new IP with a fresh, interesting universe and well-tuned tried and true mechanics can be just as awesome.

It's true that most indie games don't make it. But that's the same with all indie forms of media and entertainment. However, there's no doubt that indie games in general are bigger than ever and have more attention and excitement from gamers than ever before. This mostly due to gamers wanting something new and different than the same sequels over and over again.

Lastly, COD is more like Madden or FIFA now. It's sort of in a league of it's own and has a large competitive community around it that only plays that game year in and year out. It's more of a sports game than anything right now. Trying to use COD sales as a indicator of all gamers in general is an incorrect way of looking at things. Nevertheless, COD sales declined from 2012 to 2013, possibly indicating that even the diehard COD gamers are getting sick of the canned sequels.
 
I thought E3 had a lot of great things to show with games like The Order, Witcher 3, AC Unity, LBP3, Mortal Kombat X, Dragon Age (never played the others but this looks good) Shadow of Mordor, Destiny, Diablo 3 for next gen, GTA V for next gen, Far Cry, BF Hardline and leaked footage of bloodborne just to name a few. There are a lot of games coming out from the end of July to the end of the year that I want and then in Feb and March even more. I keep seeing all of these people complaining that there are no good games coming and I'm sitting here wondering how I'm going to be able to afford all of the games I want coming out in a relatively short period of time lol.
 
Kerosene31 said:
The word on Destiny is that the gameplay is very blah and boring. Not really much innovation. Most IPs you mention are not very innovative. Titanfall was cool for a month, then people got bored and moved on. There are countless articles online about the dwindling population in TF.

Indie games are great, but there are tons of them nobody has ever heard of. Only a few ever make it.

COD sales are leveling off? Wow, you mean they are going to have to settle for only selling a bajillion copies every year?
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After spending two days playing Destiny I can tell you the gameplay is great.
 
Mr. Titan said:
Funny, most previews for Destiny I've seen that have come out of E3 have been positive. Heck, go on over to the Destiny Alpha thread in the PS subforum where members from this forum are playing it and giving positive impressions. In fact, I'm playing the game right now and think it's pretty awesome, especially for something that's 4 months out.

And Destiny is innovative, with its mix of online campaign and co-op, what it's trying to do is pretty innovative. Titanfall's wall running and Titan mechanics are also pretty innovative. Same with Minecraft. Even Watch Dog's take on technology is different. And every game doesn't necessarily need to be innovative and different to be good and fun, a new IP with a fresh, interesting universe and well-tuned tried and true mechanics can be just as awesome.

It's true that most indie games don't make it. But that's the same with all indie forms of media and entertainment. However, there's no doubt that indie games in general are bigger than ever and have more attention and excitement from gamers than ever before. This mostly due to gamers wanting something new and different than the same sequels over and over again.

Lastly, COD is more like Madden or FIFA now. It's sort of in a league of it's own and has a large competitive community around it that only plays that game year in and year out. It's more of a sports game than anything right now. Trying to use COD sales as a indicator of all gamers in general is an incorrect way of looking at things. Nevertheless, COD sales declined from 2012 to 2013, possibly indicating that even the diehard COD gamers are getting sick of the canned sequels.
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Yeah I don't mean to bash Destiny, obviously I haven't played it. My gut tells me the amount of money they are pumping into it is going to make for a colossal failure, but I hate being "that guy". I love Bungie and hope they do great.

I think we have a different opinion of innovation. Titans in TF aren't innovative for me. I played Mechwarrior online on PC many, many years ago. Wallrunning is a little innovative for sure, but they certainly aren't the first to use it.

I don't know when the last time Major Nelson posted the XBL most played games, but anytime he did COD absolutely dominated it. 3-4 games would be in the top 10 easy and the latest one would be the no-brainer #1. Gamers buy COD games in massive quantities.
 
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