Klobrille "Most of XGS will try to deliver 60fps experiences."

MosquitoSmasher

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Klobrille on ResetEra made a comment about Xbox Game Studios and how most of them, not all, will try to deliver 60fps. Because as he says "it’s important for a smooth and responsive xCloud experience as well." he goes on

"Games running at least at 60fps is just another piece to that puzzle, as 30fps games add unnecessary latency to player controls. This may not be important for every type of game, but as I said, for most games it will."

Good news? I honestly am not sure. 60fps sure is lovely but I cannot deny that I want my eyes to" melt "with amazing visuals too. Nobody can know this, so I'm just gonna assume but I don't hope Fable is 60fps. It's open world, hopefully full of life and details and if they want to hit 60fps, won't that just restrict them a lot when it comes to graphical bells and whistles? I mean Ubi after all is opting for 30fps as well with Valhalla.

I've always been under the impression that if Halo 5 campaign had been 30fps it would have looked significantly better, even on base Xbox One. This is why I appreciate resolutions and performance modes but I realize not every developer can and will offer that. This all being said, the CPU and everything else is on another level compared to Xbox One and even Xbox One X, so who knows what they can do with the power that XSX offers. Klobrille goes on to say it will mean better gaming experiences but personally I find the experiences great already. I play Witcher 3 in 30fps and have one hell of a time.

It just would be a shame when eventually a big open world RPG comes out by Playground and doesn't look nearly as good as other open world games releasing at the same time, whether that's from a third party like Ubi or Sony doesn't matter. But I am just afraid that aiming all the way for 60fps will limit them when it comes to the graphical bells and whistles.

Any guesses on this? Maybe people here that know more than I do about these kinds of things? As for the source :


 

MosquitoSmasher

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I don't understand that whenever there's more power they need to sacrifice frames for visual fidelity and vice versa. You would think they would be able to give us both with Series X.
Maybe they can if they go for checkerboarding and not native 4K. I've heard DF say that the former can sometimes look nearly identical to native 4K, so aiming for native is a waste.

Take that UE5 engine gameplay video for example, not nearly 60fps, is 1440p but looks very crisp on Youtube even in a 1080p video. I really want XGS looking like that in a few years, can they though if they aim for 60fps?

And we haven't even started talking about raytracing yet. But Digital Foundry was crystal clear on that. 4K/60fps and raytracing? They seemed very doubtful, not to mention what needs to be sacrificed for this.
 

karmakid

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I don't understand that whenever there's more power they need to sacrifice frames for visual fidelity and vice versa. You would think they would be able to give us both with Series X.
its because you’re doubling the amount of frames you need to render in a second, when going from 30 to 60fps, so more resources and such are needed
 
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MosquitoSmasher

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The thing is, next gen, people expect a big improvement over today's graphics. Better character models, better lighting, draw distance, lod, foliage swaying in the wind, physics. Can we possibly get all that all at 60fps on XSX? There is a reason Ubi isn't aiming for 60fps for AC.

I guess we'll just have to let the games do the talking.
 

eVo7

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Maybe they can if they go for checkerboarding and not native 4K. I've heard DF say that the former can sometimes look nearly identical to native 4K, so aiming for native is a waste.

Take that UE5 engine gameplay video for example, not nearly 60fps, is 1440p but looks very crisp on Youtube even in a 1080p video. I really want XGS looking like that in a few years, can they though if they aim for 60fps?

And we haven't even started talking about raytracing yet. But Digital Foundry was crystal clear on that. 4K/60fps and raytracing? They seemed very doubtful, not to mention what needs to be sacrificed for this.
Remember, that demo was on a youtube video that you were most likly viewing on a phone, tablet, <30 monitor or laptop screen. When people have games like that running at 1440p on their 55+ inch living room TV's things will not look as crisp.
 

Kerosene31

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People shouldn't see 60fps as some massive, far off benchmark that is pushing the envelope. Games have been running at 60fps for a long time now, it isn't like it is some extreme number. These next gen boxes are going to run $500+, asking for 4k and 60fps isn't crazy at all. We won't necessarily have to give up lots in the visuals for 60 on these new consoles. On consoles like the PS4 pro and X1X, you definitely notice "performance mode" in games, but that difference should be a lot less next gen.

Some PC gamers are already looking down on 60fps and moving to 120.
 
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MosquitoSmasher

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Remember, that demo was on a youtube video that you were most likly viewing on a phone, tablet, <30 monitor or laptop screen. When people have games like that running at 1440p on their 55+ inch living room TV's things will not look as crisp.
Actually I watched DF's video (1080p) on my 65 inch C9 OLED and I was surprised by how crisp it really looked. Apparently this new tech can mask lower resolutions better? Unless that's just Sonyboy talk.
 
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eVo7

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People shouldn't see 60fps as some massive, far off benchmark that is pushing the envelope. Games have been running at 60fps for a long time now, it isn't like it is some extreme number. These next gen boxes are going to run $500+, asking for 4k and 60fps isn't crazy at all. We won't necessarily have to give up lots in the visuals for 60 on these new consoles. On consoles like the PS4 pro and X1X, you definitely notice "performance mode" in games, but that difference should be a lot less next gen.

Some PC gamers are already looking down on 60fps and moving to 120.
People shouldn't see 60fps as some massive, far off benchmark that is pushing the envelope. Games have been running at 60fps for a long time now, it isn't like it is some extreme number. These next gen boxes are going to run $500+, asking for 4k and 60fps isn't crazy at all. We won't necessarily have to give up lots in the visuals for 60 on these new consoles. On consoles like the PS4 pro and X1X, you definitely notice "performance mode" in games, but that difference should be a lot less next gen.

Some PC gamers are already looking down on 60fps and moving to 120.
This is true, but it's all based on mouse response. A mouse is a precision device, a lot more accurate than a controller for AIMing in shooting games. The more FPS you can push the more responsive the mouse will be.
 
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MosquitoSmasher

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People shouldn't see 60fps as some massive, far off benchmark that is pushing the envelope. Games have been running at 60fps for a long time now, it isn't like it is some extreme number. These next gen boxes are going to run $500+, asking for 4k and 60fps isn't crazy at all. We won't necessarily have to give up lots in the visuals for 60 on these new consoles. On consoles like the PS4 pro and X1X, you definitely notice "performance mode" in games, but that difference should be a lot less next gen.

Some PC gamers are already looking down on 60fps and moving to 120.
That's a good point and even for some games performance mode isn't even that bad looking. At times I had a hard time seeing big differences between the modes in Rise of the Tomb Raider. In Witcher 3 is definitely is noticeable but not horrible in any way. Still, I always go for the resolution mode, I want the pretties!

My thing with next gen is though, won't games become more demanding of the hardware? As time goes on we keep getting better graphics and can the XSX deliver all of that at 60fps? I don't know, I hope so.

I do know for sure that when it all comes down to it, gamers gush all over pretty graphics, it's what is being used in memes, it's what gets them talking, and not framerate. Let's see if MS has the right approach here.
 

menace-uk-

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Actually I watched DF's video (1080p) on my 65 inch C9 OLED and I was surprised by how crisp it really looked. Apparently this new tech can mask lower resolutions better? Unless that's just Sonyboy talk.
I watched it on my 55inch. Looked greeat.
 

MosquitoSmasher

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I watched it on my 55inch. Looked greeat.
Yes.

So it seems going all the way to native 4K sounds a bit like a waste. If XGS isn't going to offer a resolution mode and a performance mode, maybe they can use this kind of checkerboarding as well and have the games at 60fps?

But I don't know, I have a feeling they are dead set on getting at the full native 4K.
 

Hedon

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I think FFVI Remake and the new Star Wars game looking AMAZING, and if those were XSX games, I wouldn't unhappy. The performance is fine with me too. I just want new experiences and great games.
 
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OneBadMutha

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Its all relative. Doubling frame rate or doubling resolution is a massive hit on system resources for what individuals often subjectively view as diminishing returns. No matter how much power you get, doubling the pixels or frame rate is going to come at the cost of something else. Add in ray tracing and there's another massive hit. Even high end PC cards don't run ultra settings at 4K/60 for AC.

My preference is that devs pick their preferred default settings but give users the same options PC gamers get.

Frame rate and latency has a lot more value to Xbox studios than Playstation because:
1. PC - Animations will be tuned with higher frame rate because that's what sells better on PC
2. PC - Crossplay - parity on frame rate
3. Xcloud - extra frames help compensate for some latency. 30 fps on a faster game is unplayable online.

In the end, the prioritization is strongly related to Microsofts focus on PC and Xcloud. Sony is making games to push a single box. Their graphics will be more prioritized and optimized for their single target as a result. On the other hand, Microsoft wouldn't even have these studios and releasing these games on Game Pass if PC and Xcloud weren't part of the equation. Its give and take.
 

OneBadMutha

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Phil has already stated earlier this year that he'd rather devs focus on framerate vs. resolution, so my guess is first party games will push 60 FPS more often than 3rd party:

Yeah in the end you can always offer options. I'd rather start with 60fps and scale up graphics than the other way around. Feel of games lasts longer. Easier to add graphical bells and whistles to old games than adjust frame rate or feel. It's a point I didn't mention before. Prioritizing frames and feel better future proofs for forward compatibility on consoles. Where graphics are now, they will hold up over time better than low frame rates.
 

MosquitoSmasher

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Its all relative. Doubling frame rate or doubling resolution is a massive hit on system resources for what individuals often subjectively view as diminishing returns. No matter how much power you get, doubling the pixels or frame rate is going to come at the cost of something else. Add in ray tracing and there's another massive hit. Even high end PC cards don't run ultra settings at 4K/60 for AC.

My preference is that devs pick their preferred default settings but give users the same options PC gamers get.

Frame rate and latency has a lot more value to Xbox studios than Playstation because:
1. PC - Animations will be tuned with higher frame rate because that's what sells better on PC
2. PC - Crossplay - parity on frame rate
3. Xcloud - extra frames help compensate for some latency. 30 fps on a faster game is unplayable online.

In the end, the prioritization is strongly related to Microsofts focus on PC and Xcloud. Sony is making games to push a single box. Their graphics will be more prioritized and optimized for their single target as a result. On the other hand, Microsoft wouldn't even have these studios and releasing these games on Game Pass if PC and Xcloud weren't part of the equation. Its give and take.
I've honestly never really thought of it like that about PC but you do have a very valid point there. Also that if not for XCloud these new studios and GP likely wouldn't have happened. Never thought of that, but it's true.

I just hope that they either bring options or if they are so dead set on 60fps that they consider 1440p or checkerboarding as a option. Don't put it all in getting at native 4K no matter what. But as Klobrille said, most, not all of the studios will go 60fps. So I'd like to believe Playground's RPG likely won't be 60fps.
 

wshowers

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If the series X prioritizes frame-rate over resolution, I'm ok with that. With how far back I sit from my tv, I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a checkerboard 4k image or a 1440p image from a native 4K image. Frame rate on the other hand, I can see or more precisely, feel a difference, at any distance.
 

starseeker

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The reason why dev prioritizes visuals over fps is that gamers prefer visuals over fps.

If console players wanted & demand 60fps>visuals, then you can be sure studios will start making games running at 60fps.
 

menace-uk-

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The thing is, next gen, people expect a big improvement over today's graphics. Better character models, better lighting, draw distance, lod, foliage swaying in the wind, physics. Can we possibly get all that all at 60fps on XSX? There is a reason Ubi isn't aiming for 60fps for AC.

I guess we'll just have to let the games do the talking.
Bad choice for an example.

You have to keep in mind that AC Valhalla is a current gen game on a very old engine. I'd keep your eyes on games with far more advanced engines, like EA's next Battlefield game.
 

EG101

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Every game should come with a Normal graphics mode, a Performance mode as well as an unlocked mode with the ability to unlock the frame rate for G Sync/FREE SYNC monitors and TV's with VRR.
3 Modes:
Graphics Mostly Locked 30FPS with minimal to no dips possibly variable Res if needed for people with normal TV's.
Performance (locked 60FPS with a variable resolution).
Unlocked FPS Graphics mode that keeps the graphics high and FPS as high as it can go but only drop the FPS when it needs to. For people with G sync/Free sync and VRR TV's.
 
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OneBadMutha

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I heard a pretty interesting comment from John Linneman from DF regarding the issue when challenged on the fact that most casual gamers don't know what 60fps is. He said, even though the average gamer may be more familiar with resolution over 60fps, they actually prefer frame rate. You can gauge that by the sales of games. In general, 60fps games sell better and are played longer. Gamers may not know why they feel better. They just know that they do.

I believe Microsoft's approach to prioritize the feel of games (60fps and low latency) over graphics is the right one. Graphics help hype games. Gameplay is what keeps the gamer engaged. If Game Pass is going to contribute to mindshare and engagement regardless, then gameplay becomes more critical long term.

That said, there's a sweet spot to everything. Checkerboarding has gotten really good. ML upscaling may also play a big part next gen. I feel like if they can hit 1440P with HDR, ray tracing and a high level of detail at 60fps, that's the best balance. Sony 1st party games will likely be more detailed. In the end, it's the gameplay that keeps bringing people back. Nobody is talking about Death Stranding anymore.
 
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karmakid

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I heard a pretty interesting comment from John Linneman from DF regarding the issue when challenged on the fact that most casual gamers don't know what 60fps is. He said, even though the average gamer may be more familiar with resolution over 60fps, they actually prefer frame rate. You can gauge that by the sales of games. In general, 60fps games sell better and are played longer. Gamers may not know why they feel better. They just know that they do.

I believe Microsoft's approach to prioritize the feel of games (60fps and low latency) over graphics is the right one. Graphics help hype games. Gameplay is what keeps the gamer engaged. If Game Pass is going to contribute to mindshare and engagement regardless, then gameplay becomes more critical long term.

That said, there's a sweet spot to everything. Checkerboarding has gotten really good. ML upscaling may also play a big part next gen. I feel like if they can hit 1440P with HDR, ray tracing and a high level of detail at 60fps, that's the best balance. Sony 1st party games will likely be more detailed. In the end, it's the gameplay that keeps bringing people back. Nobody is talking about Death Stranding anymore.
how is checkerboarded games more detailed for Sony?
 

OneBadMutha

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how is checkerboarded games more detailed for Sony?
I meant Sony games could be more detailed in terms of assets...because that's what they prioritize. It's not that checkerboarding is better than true 4k. It's that I believe Sony in general prioritizes assets and animations over other technical aspects. I could see true 4K, ray tracing and 60fps taking a back seat. The fact that their hardware was built to prioritize asset streaming at the expense of other technical capabilities makes sense when you look at the types of games their studios are known for.
 

karmakid

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I meant Sony games could be more detailed in terms of assets...because that's what they prioritize. It's not that checkerboarding is better than true 4k. It's that I believe Sony in general prioritizes assets and animations over other technical aspects. I could see true 4K, ray tracing and 60fps taking a back seat. The fact that their hardware was built to prioritize asset streaming at the expense of other technical capabilities makes sense when you look at the types of games their studios are known for.
can an asset at 1080p be more detailed then said asset at 4k? I wanna say yes, if say said asset has more polys, effects and or shaders...but I honestly don’t know.

There’s a reason why linear games like the last of us and killzone shadow look so much prettier and stylized when compared to other open world games, they can hide the rest of the world with massive buildings or dense foliage.

I’m more about style tho, like Japan Studio and sucker punch. And small details are what get me the most...like in gta v, you can go up to a building and see conduits, wires or pipes and follow them as if they were functional and up to code.

I guess it’s really all about how they use their assets with this new power. The ssds will definitely allow them to go further but I feel we won’t see what they’re really capable of until each studio makes their second game.

*begins to imagine what og crysis would play like in ps5*

*edit to add below *

I guess this is one example, kinda, sorta, maybe

 
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