MS and Sony Indy policy discussion

[jsgiv]

[Mod note: Transplanted from X1 thread.]

Every developer signed up for Microsoft's Windows development programs, like every developer signed up for Apple's developer program, gets early access to the SDK. That is pretty much standard in the development world. There are also more expensive developer programs available from Microsoft that give you access to pretty much every piece of software they make. I used to be a part of that program and would get DVDs and CDs every quarter.

I would love it if their Xbox indy program worked the same way as the Windows Phone and 8 store programs. That would be ideal. You don't see them dictating when something should launch on windows Phone, for example, because no one would ever release their software on the program if that were the case. Which implies that it's not that easy to do (release on multiple platforms at the same time).

That's actually an interesting analogy. Imagine you're a developer, wanting to bring something to mobile. You can release on iPhone and/or Windows Phone. The market is huge on iPhone, but not so great on Windows Phone, so you're not so sure how you feel about that. But then you learn that Windows Phone's program says you have to launch on their platform simultaneously with iPhone. Since you were on the fence about Windows Phone anyway, if you were sane, you'd say, "you know what, no. I'm not going to go through that in this case."

The point is not that Xbox is a market similar to Windows Phone; it's not. The point is to call out that there IS an inconvenience in having launch schedules dictated to you. And in the case of Xbox development, many developers will consider the inconvenience to not be worth their effort; they could use that time to launch on other platforms. And then you and I lose out on games.

I can only imagine what people would be saying here if Sony had this policy.

so - just that I'm clear:

Microsoft has a program that:
- Upon acceptance (after review) -
- Provides 2 development X1's free of charge, along with access to Unity, to allow quick and easy (hopefully) development to indie devs, and in return, is outlining in their policy to ensure release parity (i.e. release on the X1 the same time as the PC or PS4)?
- No alternative in place for development (i.e. dev must go this route instead of purchasing hardware from MS along with licensing for SDK, etc. - though it's been noted that MS is "lenient" with the policy)?

Whereas:
Sony's program is:
- No restrictions (i.e. release when you want - no "request" or policy enforcing parity).
- Devs must purchase their own dev kit (SDK) and hardware.
- No Unity (or comparable) SDK...
- No alternative to get the Development hardware/SDK for free (longer development time - developer(s) assume all risk to obtain the licensing and hardware to complete development)

Anything I'm missing?

Compared to previous generations - IMHO - MS is actually doing a lot to allow developers to quickly/easily create games for their platform. You don't *have* to develop for MS initially - you could simply go the Sony route... And considering the fact that both platforms are "similar" in nature anyway with respect to the hardware involved (aside from the obvious differences for the various versions, and OS, etc.) - it just really depends on which route you want to go..

I remember that in order to develop for consoles in past generations - you had to spend quite a huge amount on the dev kits alone.... Now - MS is basically giving it away with the simple "ask" or policy to release within the same time periods as PS4/PC?

You do have a choice - don't sign up if you don't like the terms/policy. It's been this way for years now - it's not like devs are "entitled" to develop for the X1 or PS4...

 

[Hammerclaw]

Every developer signed up for Microsoft's Windows development programs, like every developer signed up for Apple's developer program, gets early access to the SDK. That is pretty much standard in the development world. There are also more expensive developer programs available from Microsoft that give you access to pretty much every piece of software they make. I used to be a part of that program and would get DVDs and CDs every quarter.

I would love it if their Xbox indy program worked the same way as the Windows Phone and 8 store programs. That would be ideal. You don't see them dictating when something should launch on windows Phone, for example, because no one would ever release their software on the program if that were the case. Which implies that it's not that easy to do (release on multiple platforms at the same time).

That's actually an interesting analogy. Imagine you're a developer, wanting to bring something to mobile. You can release on iPhone and/or Windows Phone. The market is huge on iPhone, but not so great on Windows Phone, so you're not so sure how you feel about that. But then you learn that Windows Phone's program says you have to launch on their platform simultaneously with iPhone. Since you were on the fence about Windows Phone anyway, if you were sane, you'd say, "you know what, no. I'm not going to go through that in this case."

The point is not that Xbox is a market similar to Windows Phone; it's not. The point is to call out that there IS an inconvenience in having launch schedules dictated to you. And in the case of Xbox development, many developers will consider the inconvenience to not be worth their effort; they could use that time to launch on other platforms. And then you and I lose out on games.

I can only imagine what people would be saying here if Sony had this policy.

They would say that since Sony, in their infinite generosity and love for the Indie, is providing a free SDK and enabling relatively cheap hardware to develop on, it's only fair that the games release on the PS4, the hardware they are developed on, first. Afterall they are free to launch on any other platform, too, any time they want to. That greedy Microsoft would never do anything like our beloved Sony is doing.

 

[pravus]

so - just that I'm clear:

Microsoft has a program that:
- Upon acceptance (after review) -
- Provides 2 development X1's free of charge, along with access to Unity, to allow quick and easy (hopefully) development to indie devs, and in return, is outlining in their policy to ensure release parity (i.e. release on the X1 the same time as the PC or PS4)?
- No alternative in place for development (i.e. dev must go this route instead of purchasing hardware from MS along with licensing for SDK, etc. - though it's been noted that MS is "lenient" with the policy)?

Whereas:
Sony's program is:
- No restrictions (i.e. release when you want - no "request" or policy enforcing parity).
- Devs must purchase their own dev kit (SDK) and hardware.
- No Unity (or comparable) SDK...
- No alternative to get the Development hardware/SDK for free (longer development time - developer(s) assume all risk to obtain the licensing and hardware to complete development)

Anything I'm missing?

Compared to previous generations - IMHO - MS is actually doing a lot to allow developers to quickly/easily create games for their platform. You don't *have* to develop for MS initially - you could simply go the Sony route... And considering the fact that both platforms are "similar" in nature anyway with respect to the hardware involved (aside from the obvious differences for the various versions, and OS, etc.) - it just really depends on which route you want to go..

I remember that in order to develop for consoles in past generations - you had to spend quite a huge amount on the dev kits alone.... Now - MS is basically giving it away with the simple "ask" or policy to release within the same time periods as PS4/PC?

You do have a choice - don't sign up if you don't like the terms/policy. It's been this way for years now - it's not like devs are "entitled" to develop for the X1 or PS4...

IIRC it's not even release parity with PC at all, just "competing consoles".

 

[jsgiv]

so - going back to the threads/articles from the original points:

From this article:

Xbox One indie games launching alongside PS4, PC requirement looked at on a "case by case" basis

Microsoft announced its ID@Xbox program at Gamescom 2013, offering indie developers two free Xbox One development kits, a license for popular game-making engine Unity, and the opportunity to self-publish their game. The cost of all this? That the Xbox One version of any title be launched on the same day as any other platforms, such as PS4 and PC.

From the Sony front:

Sony loaning out PS4 dev kits to developers free of charge for a year

The dev kit itself costs about $2,500, but Sony is loaning them out for free for a period of one year, according to the company's "Become a Registered Developer" website. Various development sources in the article said that no dev kits have been sold as of yet. "All the indies I know got them for free," said one developer. "Sony has been amazing about kits and development thus far." Another developer stated that the company is "handing them out like candy."

So - MS basically gives you the dev kits / license and self-publishing for free - in return for asking for parity at launch..

Sony, on the other hand, is simply handing out dev kits on "loan" for free for a period of a year... no ask for parity...

Both have defined policies, yet neither are really adhering to them apparently..

 

[Yoyoniner]

The proof will be in the pudding. As of right now, if you look at metacritic's list of games, there are quite a few more indie games on the PS4 than there are on Xbox one.

 

[Hammerclaw]

I wonder how many of the people who argue indies so passionately actually put in any significant time playing them? Most indie games seem nothing more than phone fodder to me.

 

[jsgiv]

well - considering the fact that I was watching the demo's side by side the other day while waiting in line - it was interesting to see the X1 demo kiosk displaying TF, Thief, and other big title / AAA releases - whereas the PS4 kiosk was showing inFamous:SS and a bunch of Indie titles.. (the one that caught my eye was a weird "retro" style game called "Fez" - very weird looking and I thought it looked extremely out of place on the PS4 (IMHO it looked like a game that should be targeted on the WiiU considering the look and feel of the game.... )...

 

[Hammerclaw]

well - considering the fact that I was watching the demo's side by side the other day while waiting in line - it was interesting to see the X1 demo kiosk displaying TF, Thief, and other big title / AAA releases - whereas the PS4 kiosk was showing inFamous:SS and a bunch of Indie titles.. (the one that caught my eye was a weird "retro" style game called "Fez" - very weird looking and I thought it looked extremely out of place on the PS4 (IMHO it looked like a game that should be targeted on the WiiU considering the look and feel of the game.... )...

You should google fez. Interesting story behind that game.

 

[Hammerclaw]

Games that are grouped under the "indie" banner should be subdevided into two distinct groups: Amateur Indies, and Professional Independent Game Studios. You expect professional results from professionals. It's when the amateur startups produce something outstanding, that's what makes the movement shine.