DirectX 12 Coming to Xbox One thread, v. 2

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Jackie_Fhan said:
I'm sure someone cares :) again, your being irrational. You just stated MS released earlier than expected, seems they would have also changed the hardware a bit if they had planned to release a year later, that only kind of further proves DX12 will be designed for X1... It's fine, I think we simply disagree and have nothing else to discuss on the matter.
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Wrong. The X1 has four FPGA cores in the mix of specialized cores on the APU. Microsoft CAN update hardware after release.

#DEALWITHIT

The only person who needs to quit talking is you... because you are nearly entirely wrong about everything you have said.
 
Jackie_Fhan said:
I'm sure someone cares :) again, your being irrational. You just stated MS released earlier than expected, seems they would have also changed the hardware a bit if they had planned to release a year later, that only kind of further proves DX12 will be designed for X1... It's fine, I think we simply disagree and have nothing else to discuss on the matter.
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There never was.
 
XBoxNeo said:
Multiple industry people have now repeatedly said both that the X1 is full DX12, and that the X1 will run ~at least~ twice as fast.

Porting a giant full Xbox One game to PC can be accomplished in weeks.

DX12 on XBox one is faster and easier to develop for on consoles. It is case closed, and continuing to suggest otherwise at this point should be considered trolling...

DX12 feeds your GPU so much faster than anything before (even you OpenGL fanboys take notice here) your Pre-DX12 video card will need a new cooling solution because it will overheat.

Just staph...
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Yeah, stop, please. The cooling solutions on GPU's are designed to cool them at maximum work load. DX12 doesn't change the workload, it simply increases the speed at which the CPU can talk to the GPU. Also, I see nobody saying DX12 will not make it easier or will not improve performance.

Oh, can port games in weeks, but the Forza 5 presentation needed a Titan Black GPU, hardly a rig worthy of showing efficiency.
 
menace-uk- said:
You forget that Sony bought a software company to do their tools this time round. The whole "Sony is hardware, MS is software" line of thought doesn't work as well this gen. Obviously, that doesn't mean my doubt isn't misplaced, but that is all it is doubt. Not really sure how anybody can be certain one way or the other at the moment.



Unless I have missed something, all MS has said is that DX12 will improve performance. Nobody is doubting that. Seems pretty obvious that DX12 wiITll improve performance. The question is how much, and none here know the answer to that. So a "Wait and see" reply is very much warranted.
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Well, there seems to be a few things that will improve performance coming in the near future. In fact, new SDK's, added GPU usage and so forth should help out in that area, and thats without DX12 or the cloud. "Wait and see" isnt warranted when it comes to the X1. This isnt Sony were talking about. Ive said this before but Im not sure where all this distrust for Microsoft is coming from but its unfounded. They've been incredibly transparent. They've been upfront about their plans and they've been pretty consistent with the updates--not to mention bringing more innovation towards the industry than Sony and Nintendo combined. As it stands right now, Microsoft is the biggest threat towards traditional consoles this generation. And truth of it, the X1 is the brightest beacon of real change in traditional consoles we've seen in decades.

Hence the reason why so many jump on every bit of news released about the X1--why so many feel the need to take the "wait and see" approach. Its not because Microsoft has a history of not delivering on their promises, but because so much of what they are bringing to the table this generation not only will change consoles forever, but has already done so. And the train is JUST leaving the station.... Think on it. :cool:
 
menace-uk- said:
Yeah, stop, please. The cooling solutions on GPU's are designed to cool them at maximum work load. DX12 doesn't change the workload, it simply increases the speed at which the CPU can talk to the GPU. Also, I see nobody saying DX12 will not make it easier or will not improve performance.

Oh, can port games in weeks, but the Forza 5 presentation needed a Titan Black GPU, hardly a rig worthy of showing efficiency.
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That would be why I'm waiting, they haven't really shown anything that has been worth while. Nothing wrong with waiting to see the results, as good or bad as they may be. Sort of like hyping a game up before release or from the first trailer. Better to just wait, always obvious there will be performance increase as their has been with every game console ever released obviously.

I think the actual real problem here is people are still mostly worrying about visuals and so are the devs. I'd rather see unique gameplay at the end of the day, and I haven't seen anything close to that from anyone for the most part.

I have always found the xbox side to be more into visuals and caring about it more on average, but I'd rather the industry as a whole just settle for decent clean/visuals and start developing for new ideas, physics, control.
 
Mcmasters said:
Well, there seems to be a few things that will improve performance coming in the near future. In fact, new SDK's, added GPU usage and so forth should help out in that area, and thats without DX12 or the cloud. "Wait and see" isnt warranted when it comes to the X1. This isnt Sony were talking about. Ive said this before but Im not sure where all this distrust for Microsoft is coming from but its unfounded. They've been incredibly transparent. They've been upfront about their plans and they've been pretty consistent with the updates--not to mention bringing more innovation towards the industry than Sony and Nintendo combined. As it stands right now, Microsoft is the biggest threat towards traditional consoles this generation. And truth of it, the X1 is the brightest beacon of real change in traditional consoles we've seen in decades.

Hence the reason why so many jump on every bit of news released about the X1--why so many feel the need to take the "wait and see" approach. Its not because Microsoft has a history of not delivering on their promises, but because so much of what they are bringing to the table this generation not only will change consoles forever, but has already done so. And the train is JUST leaving the station.... Think on it. :cool:
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This is a DX12 specific thread and I am talking specifically DX12. SDK's and resource extras are moot here. The Cloud is very much "Wait and see". I do not distrust MS, but they simply haven't provided enough xbox one specific details regarding DX12. That is all.

and I STRESS yet again, nobody is saying there will not be performance increases.
 
Jackie_Fhan said:
I don't like this argument, you can't always believe or think Sony will always be bad at software just because they started as a hardware company and vice versa. New teams, new fields always have changes. This argument has been used a lot in the past, but Sony obviously did better currently on software tools, so there is no reason to keep this old saying going any longer. Sony now has the software experience and people to keep up with MS, that is a possible out come. It isn't like MS's last few software outtings have been that amazing.
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Jackie, your embarrassing yourself.

If you believe for one second that Sony can even begin to challenge Microsoft in the software department, you're practically blurring the line between fact and Tolkein-esque fantasy. You know, and so do the rest of us, that Sony will never, NEVER be able to match Microsoft in the software department. If they were even in the same league, they would have shown this skill last generation, and the generation before. Safer isnt always better, and thats precisely what Sony has accomplished. Hence the reason why they seem to be so much on top of their game when compared to the X1 that just so happens to be the more riskier, forward thinking machine out of the big 3.

Truthfully, you and a few others have been marked. I have a feeling there will be plenty of crow to go around. And I'll make sure that I bring you and those unnamed, a smoking hot plate of it when the truth comes out....
 
Mcmasters, I like to think logically. The industry as a whole is at a bit of a similar state, who use to work for MS/Sony have went to other companies and vice versa. I don't think the tech fro anyone is so one sided as you and others have been acting in this thread. Where one person codes and works for Sony, they have also went to MS and vice versa again. I think a few of you are just thinking one side has a big advantage on this front, when they actually don't. Technology is sort of diluted around the world where even China can somewhat compete in some ways.

I do think you and a lot of you are wrong, now. Where the difference could be is money and power to take what you do have and know into a stronger direction, that is about the only thing i could say MS could do that a Sony couldn't.

In the 90's and 2000's technology was a big part of school, life and work. Where MS was once king, is now a bigger playing field for jobs, work, learning, entertainment. This pushes everyone into a more close nit group where no one is that far ahead, not how you and others are talking atleast.
 
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[quote="Jackie_Fhan, post: 159908, member: 1073"]It's better to see the results than believe any Pre hype notions from most companies. Yes, I think any half sane person would agree that the performance will increase, but by how much and by what we actually see on the screen will need to be a wait and see.[/quote]

Funny that. Because you dont seem to doubt Sony when they say something is on the way. And if you watch the trend with Sony, even this gen, they still are having troubles delivering on what they say. Same ol Sony. Same ol Jackie...
 
Mcmasters said:
="Jackie_Fhan, post: 159908, member: 1073"]It's better to see the results than believe any Pre hype notions from most companies. Yes, I think any half sane person would agree that the performance will increase, but by how much and by what we actually see on the screen will need to be a wait and see.
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Funny that. Because you dont seem to doubt Sony when they say something is on the way. And if you watch the trend with Sony, even this gen, they still are having troubles delivering on what they say. Same ol Sony. Same ol Jackie...
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I doubt them just as much and have just as much negative to say, just the people there are sometimes a little more open to discuss is the difference. I'm not crowing anyone has having a huge advantage, I just think Sony has more lee way to increase performance in their box. They have more power, so rather they can achieve that or not is also not yet to be seen. Your being illogical.
 
Jackie_Fhan said:
Mcmasters, I like to think logically. The industry as a whole is at a bit of a similar state, who use to work for MS/Sony have went to other companies and vice versa. I don't think the tech fro anyone is so one sided as you and others have been acting in this thread. Where one person codes and works for Sony, they have also went to MS and vice versa again. I think a few of you are just thinking one side has a big advantage on this front, when they actually don't. Technology is sort of diluted around the world where even China can somewhat compete in some ways.

I do think you and a lot of you are wrong, now. Where the difference could be is money and power to take what you do have and know into a stronger direction, that is about the only thing i could say MS could do that a Sony couldn't.

In the 90's and 2000's technology was a big part of school, life and work. Where MS was once king, is now a bigger playing field for jobs, work, learning, entertainment. This pushes everyone into a more close nit group where no one is that far ahead, not how you and others are talking atleast.
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I didnt even read the rest of your post Jackie for the simple fact that you believe a company like Sony could even remotely challenge the most successful software company in the world with software. No way. No way in hell. Thats not logical. Thats ridiculous.
 
Mcmasters said:
1073"]Funny that. Because you dont seem to doubt Sony when they say something is on the way. And if you watch the trend with Sony, even this gen, they still are having troubles delivering on what they say. Same ol Sony. Same ol Jackie...
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Trying to turn this in to another X1 v PS4 thread ? no need for it.


Jackie_Fhan said:
I doubt them just as much and have just as much negative to say, just the people there are sometimes a little more open to discuss is the difference. I'm not crowing anyone has having a huge advantage, I just think Sony has more lee way to increase performance in their box. They have more power, so rather they can achieve that or not is also not yet to be seen. Your being illogical.
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I'm wondering the PS4 will run into issues with bottlenecks. It has faster RAM and more powerful GPU, but the CPU is weaker. That could cause some problems as we move through this gen.
 
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Jackie_Fhan said:
I doubt them just as much and have just as much negative to say, just the people there are sometimes a little more open to discuss is the difference. I'm not crowing anyone has having a huge advantage, I just think Sony has more lee way to increase performance in their box. They have more power, so rather they can achieve that or not is also not yet to be seen. Your being illogical.
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How in the hell can you think that when all the 4's power is locked inside the box and the X1's is not only local but from the Cloud as well? You may want to dismiss the Cloud because your favorite console doesnt sport the same swag, but there is no denying that its changed the game and will only improve. The last demo from Microsoft involving the Cloud proved that. Sony literally has NO RESPONSE WHAT SO EVER since the Cloud demo or the DX12 info release. Even no response is a response none-the-less. And it speaks volumes to those who have no reason not to trust their own eyes...
 
menace-uk- said:
Trying to turn this in to another X1 v PS4 thread ? no need for it.





I'm wondering the PS4 will run into issues with bottlenecks. It has faster RAM and more powerful GPU, but the CPU is weaker. That could cause some problems as we move through this gen.
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Not trying to turn this into a versus anything. But lets be honest and stay in the realm of reality here.
 
Jackie_Fhan said:
Do we actually know the CPU numbers for each though, I wasn't aware if so.
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If we go purely by speed, yes. Sony said the CPU is 1.6ghz. The xbox one is 1.75ghz Obviously not a huge difference on its own, but coupled with all the other hardware, could possibly be problematic for the more powerful machine.

Mcmasters said:
Not trying to turn this into a versus anything. But lets be honest and stay in the realm of reality here.
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So a "Wait and see" approach isn't in the realm of reality ?
 
I'm not trying to turn it into a versus, isn't a lot to compare now. I would like to see more demonstrations and demos though, E3 may lead to something hopefully.
 
XBoxNeo said:
Multiple industry people have now repeatedly said both that the X1 is full DX12, and that the X1 will run ~at least~ twice as fast.
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I'm sorry but please don't muddy the waters with such claims, as it's factually neither correct nor does it help your cause and/or a qualified discussion.

There was only one person saying that DX12 will double performance for X1 (including GPU). The rest of the pack (including Phil Spencer) never clarified these improvements - the only thing we know for sure is that there will be improvements.

Of course there are these quotes from AMD/Intel/Nvidia:
AMD's Raja Khodury: "And it's not a small benefit. It's… like getting four generations of hardware ahead with this API."

Intel's VP of Engineering, Eric Mentezer: "This is absolutely, I think, the most significant jump in technology in a long, long time."

Nvidia's VP of Content and Technology, Tony Tamasi: "existing cards will see orders of magnitude improvements from DirectX 12's release, going from hundreds of thousands to millions and maybe tens of millions of system draws in a second."
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... and while these statements sound very promising they are also:
a) unspecific
b) directed to PC NOT X1

Don't get me wrong - I think you got a lot of things right, but it's easy to dismiss this otherwise great news if you're not very precise with what you say.

What we need is less speculation and broad statements and more factual evidence.
The truth is: We've heard very little in regards to X1 and DX12.

Jackie_Fhan said:
I have always found the xbox side to be more into visuals and caring about it more on average, but I'd rather the industry as a whole just settle for decent clean/visuals and start developing for new ideas, physics, control.
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Are you serious?
It's always the side that thinks that it got the upper hand (in terms of performance) that is more into visuals.
No day passes without Sony and Sony fanboys reminding the general public that they got the more potent system - "Resolutiongate" is definitely not an invention of the Xbox loyalists.
 
So, Ryse is better looking than anything on PS4 RIGHT NOW, but Microsoft has to prove themselves. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
 
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Nervusbreakdown said:
well to be honest I think this Fable will be different because you can see they have almost a whole new crew at Lionshead Studios. I think this is going to be a true RPG game that will shock alot of people.

I think it will take this game differently then the others.
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Peter Molyneux not being involved with it can only be a good thing for the game.
 
Momewrath said:
Peter Molyneux not being involved with it can only be a good thing for the game.
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Absofreakinlutely.

I really want FABLE to go more RPG. The RPG elements in 2/3 may well have not been there. Having more character traits to upgrade and influence would also help with re-playability. I would like a revisit to the king of Albion Idea too, as it was a nice idea, but terribly executed.
 
Mcmasters said:
I didnt even read the rest of your post Jackie for the simple fact that you believe a company like Sony could even remotely challenge the most successful software company in the world with software. No way. No way in hell. Thats not logical. Thats ridiculous.
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Explain why then PS4 development tools are constantly praised by developers, for being easier to develop for, & from the games release so far, show that it wasn't all that bad?

We got it, MS is a big software company & they have smart people, but can be just give credit when its due?

I am saying this as a developer with 10 years experience. Quality>Quantity when it comes to specialise fields.

First Sony isn't challenging MS as a software company, no one think that they are going to have a OS that will challenge Windows, or have their own version of Office. But in a very specific field, say development tool, they can actually be competitive (which have been proven on PS4 actually), or even better.

Its actually very simple. Investing in the field you wish to do well, & hire the best/right people, which was what Sony had done last couple of years.

How else do you think they can have a development tools that are both easy to develop for & perform well?
 
The discussion really cant go any further than speculation until E3, where im just assuming DX12 will be part of the message. Then, the flame wars can commence in full. Ugh, this place is going to be intolerable the week of E3.
 
Momewrath said:
The discussion really cant go any further than speculation until E3, where im just assuming DX12 will be part of the message. Then, the flame wars can commence in full. Ugh, this place is going to be intolerable the week of E3.
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Agree with the first statement about waiting for E3. Disagree with 2nd statement about Flame war.

The main disagreement about the discussion here can be sum as 'let's wait and see with more factual information, we know there will be improvement, but we have not much info ' group vs 'DX12 will have massive (how massive depends on who you asked) improvements, & list their reasoning'

If MS show at E3 a game running with DX with massive improvement, say KI on 1080p with more bell & whistle, then I do not see why people (first group) will try to start a frame war. In fact many of us will celebrate like its October fest in June.
 
Jackie_Fhan said:
Do we actually know the CPU numbers for each though, I wasn't aware if so.
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The irony is, we've always had CPU numbers, but not GPU (for XOne), yet people like youself skip the factual information in favor of a statement about how much more powerful the PS4 GPU is, when GPU is the very thing we DON'T have numbers on. (Let alone taking into account the offloading into the equation) It boggles the mind!
 
GordoSan said:
The irony is, we've always had CPU numbers, but not GPU (for XOne), yet people like youself skip the factual information in favor of a statement about how much more powerful the PS4 GPU is, when GPU is the very thing we DON'T have numbers on. (Let alone taking into account the offloading into the equation) It boggles the mind!
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that's why i don't understand people speaking so definitively on the XBox GPU when they have no clue!
 
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