Are we on the brink of WWIII??

Qbert said:
You're talking out your arse. That's like me saying:
"If only all religious folks had your morals than religion could come together and make a difference in the world". Instead, most troubles throughout the world today is caused due to religion.


Again, you don't know how many atheist are actually donating and doing awesome things....you're hung up on this notion that we're uncaring people with no moral compass.
Click to expand...
Not at all. You posted above and I quote "In general, atheist are indeed better for humanity." Im simply proving to you that that is false. Christianity alone has an estimated 2.1-3 billion followers worldwide. There is an estimated 170 million atheists worldwide. I believe that atheists should be glad that Christianity teaches the values of peace, love, forgiveness, patience, joy, etc. Its true that Christians took part in the Crusades, but they were forced into it, because Islam broke Muhammeds command that Muslims were to be peaceful with Christians. I would easily challenge anyone to prove that a single religion has killed more people than a single atheist, Joseph Stalin. And while we are at it, why not count up the wars, and body counts, from non religious reasons? Do a little research and you will find that when put into proper perspective religion isn't some scourge on humanity.
 
Last edited:
Soda Jack said:
Not at all. You posted above and I quote "In general, atheist are indeed better for humanity." Im simply proving to you that that is false. Christianity alone has an estimated 2.1-3 billion followers worldwide. There is an estimated 170 million atheists worldwide. I believe that atheists should be glad that Christianity teaches the values of peace, love, forgiveness, patience, joy, etc. Its true that Christians took part in the Crusades, but they were forced into it, because Islam broke Muhammeds command that Muslims were to be peaceful with Christians. I would easily challenge anyone to prove that a single religion has killed more people than a single atheist, Joseph Stalin. And while we are at it, why not count up the wars, and body counts, from non religious reasons? Do a little research and you will find that when put into proper perspective religion isn't some scourge on humanity.
Click to expand...


And Christianity in past history, and Islam now, have been responsible for the most atrocities ever. Stalin's atrocities are attributed to the lunacy of a power hunger mad man, not atheism.
So, you have no basis to claim I'm wrong, when on the contrary, religion has been the reason for so much strife on this planet.


There has been NO mass killings in the name of atheism. Blaming atheism on Stalin's atrocities is no different than blaming carnivores for being responsible for mass killings and wars. One thing has nothing to do with the other, hence why it's a false equivalency.
false equivalency:
A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result. In other words, correlation does not mean causation. The pattern of the fallacy is often as such: If A is the set of c and d, and B is the set of d and e, then since they both contain d, A and B are equal. d is not required to exist in both sets; only a passing similarity is required to cause this fallacy to be able to be used.
Click to expand...


Would there be no wars if not for religion? Hell no, no one is saying otherwise....but the fever in which people in mass commit atrocities could very well be lessened when there is no religion to fuel that fire.
 
Soda Jack said:
Not at all. You posted above and I quote "In general, atheist are indeed better for humanity." Im simply proving to you that that is false. Christianity alone has an estimated 2.1-3 billion followers worldwide. There is an estimated 170 million atheists worldwide. I believe that atheists should be glad that Christianity teaches the values of peace, love, forgiveness, patience, joy, etc. Its true that Christians took part in the Crusades, but they were forced into it, because Islam broke Muhammeds command that Muslims were to be peaceful with Christians. I would easily challenge anyone to prove that a single religion has killed more people than a single atheist, Joseph Stalin. And while we are at it, why not count up the wars, and body counts, from non religious reasons? Do a little research and you will find that when put into proper perspective religion isn't some scourge on humanity.
Click to expand...
The Christian Crusades are up there with the most deadly movements ever.
 
PURELY OPINION I think most of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion are just the machinations of evil people who want/have/keep power, wealth and influence and use the guise of religion as a mean to that end.
 
Philosophy, in general, is the cause of wars. People who say religion are missing the bigger point (which unfortunately, makes for effective atheist propaganda).

Qbert said:
Would there be no wars if not for religion? Hell no, no one is saying otherwise....but the fever in which people in mass commit atrocities could very well be lessened when there is no religion to fuel that fire.
Click to expand...

I could very easily argue that without the moral standards most modern day religions impose, wars could actually be far worse in terms of atrocities committed. And some of the worst atrocities that have been committed weren't by religious armies.
 
Soda Jack said:
In my religion, it most certainly does. Its generally a part of everyday life. It is true though that temptation can and has broken even what appears to be the strongest will. Like I said above, even believers are not perfect, that is a fact that is made very clear in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Circular reasoning. You are my proving my point.

My religion does so there for I do.
Your religion doesn't so there for you don't.

That kind of reasoning can not be argued with.

I'm not dissing you or your chosen belief. I'm saying the samething qbert is,. Your association of atheism and historical reference is way off.
 
Plainview said:
If there's every been a grand swiping, impossible to quantify post, this is it.
Click to expand...


It's an assumption no doubt, but considering that many mass atrocities were committed in the name of some religion and as far as I know, no mass atrocities committed in the name of "atheism, I'd say it's a valid assumption.
 
Soldier Gryphon said:
Philosophy, in general, is the cause of wars. People who say religion are missing the bigger point (which unfortunately, makes for effective atheist propaganda).



I could very easily argue that without the moral standards most modern day religions impose, wars could actually be far worse in terms of atrocities committed. And some of the worst atrocities that have been committed weren't by religious armies.
Click to expand...


No army committed these atrocities though in the name of atheism. In other words, Stalin didn't use "atheism" as an excuse for atrocities, but people certainly used religion as an excuse. And saying that atrocities could have been worse if not for religion is pure opinion, and not something really based on much. I mean, in the name of god, man have bashed babies against trees and have killed and tortured people in most horrific ways known to man. While the same was done by atheist, they were never done in defense of atheism.



The bottom line, my point being, religion has been the reason for wars, atheism has not.
 
Last edited:
Qbert said:
No army committed these atrocities though in the name of atheism. In other words, Stalin didn't use "atheism" as an excuse for atrocities, but people certainly used religion as an excuse. And saying that atrocities could have been worse if not for religion is pure opinion, and not something really based on much. I mean, in the name of god, man have bashed babies against trees and have killed and tortured people in most horrific ways known to man. While the same was done by atheist, they were never done in defense of atheism.



The bottom line, my point being, religion has been the reason for wars, atheism has not.
Click to expand...

As atheists themselves will say: Atheism isn't about a belief in something, it is about the lack of one. Considering that, how does one start a war in the name of disbelief in something?

Not saying it's impossible. Perhaps one day there will be an atrocity based on the idea that religion is a plight on humanity, and we should therefore kill religious believers. But right now, atheists make up a very small minority of people on the planet (as opposed to agnostic anyways).

In other words, you don't even have the power to commit an atrocity even if you wanted to.

As I said, people kill and start wars for philosophies in general. That can be religion, or that can be other philosophies like naziism, racism, fascism, or communism. Or, yes, democracy.
 
Soldier Gryphon said:
As atheists themselves will say: Atheism isn't about a belief in something, it is about the lack of one. Considering that, how does one start a war in the name of disbelief in something?

Not saying it's impossible. Perhaps one day there will be an atrocity based on the idea that religion is a plight on humanity, and we should therefore kill religious believers. But right now, atheists make up a very small minority of people on the planet (as opposed to agnostic anyways).

In other words, you don't even have the power to commit an atrocity even if you wanted to.

As I said, people kill and start wars for philosophies in general. That can be religion, or that can be other philosophies like naziism, racism, fascism, or communism. Or, yes, democracy.
Click to expand...


Indeed...but as others pointed out, Stalin had the power to commit an atrocity, but even then, it was not in name of a non-belief. So yes, atrocities are indeed committed for religious reasons, philosophical reasons, etc. I don't think anyone has ever disputed otherwise, but the point still remains, while there have been tons of reasons used to defend atrocities, and yes, religion being one of them...a lack of belief was never a reason to commit mass atrocities.
Today, most mass atrocities are committed by people who use religion to defend themselves. Islamist against the west, Islamist against the Jews, the Jews against islamist, the west defending the Jews bombing children, etc....all backed by religion.
 
Plainview said:
The Christian Crusades are up there with the most deadly movements ever.
Click to expand...
If Im not mistaken there were approx. 3 million killed during the Crusades. That's Christians, and Muslims combined. It is certainly a dark mark in the history of Christianity, and Islam alike. Christianity doesn't teach that its ok to kill and bring about destruction, Jesus even tells his followers to Love thy enemy. And the prophet Muhammad commands Muslims to live in peace with Christians til the end of time in the Quran. Something went terribly wrong somewhere, and it wasn't anything wrong with the teachings of each religions founders. Humans are just sinners.
 
What it comes down to, no matter what someone claims, the atrocities carried out in the name of whatever religion is the work of a madman, period. Claiming that it was the the name of Christianity, Islam, whatever, doesn't indict the religion as a whole. Overwhelmingly, religion is peaceful. I will say, there's more madmen carrying atrocities in the name if Islam in this day and age though.
 
Soda Jack said:
If Im not mistaken there were approx. 3 million killed during the Crusades. That's Christians, and Muslims combined. It is certainly a dark mark in the history of Christianity, and Islam alike. Christianity doesn't teach that its ok to kill and bring about destruction, Jesus even tells his followers to Love thy enemy. And the prophet Muhammad commands Muslims to live in peace with Christians til the end of time in the Quran. Something went terribly wrong somewhere, and it wasn't anything wrong with the teachings of each religions founders. Humans are just sinners.
Click to expand...
The number is far higher from what I've read. Closer to 8 million.
 
Qbert said:
Indeed...but as others pointed out, Stalin had the power to commit an atrocity, but even then, it was not in name of a non-belief. So yes, atrocities are indeed committed for religious reasons, philosophical reasons, etc. I don't think anyone has ever disputed otherwise, but the point still remains, while there have been tons of reasons used to defend atrocities, and yes, religion being one of them...a lack of belief was never a reason to commit mass atrocities.
Today, most mass atrocities are committed by people who use religion to defend themselves. Islamist against the west, Islamist against the Jews, the Jews against islamist, the west defending the Jews bombing children, etc....all backed by religion.
Click to expand...

A few points here based on what I bolded.
  • Using religion as a defense does not mean religion was the root cause of the war and/or atrocity commited
  • A majority of the biggest atrocities in modern history such as the Holocaust, Nanking Massacare, Mao's regime, Rwanda Genocide, and many other were in no way based on religious teachings or religion in general. That said, I'd like to see all the massacres you are specifically talking and how they make up the majority of world-wide atrocities.
  • Come to think of it, very few wars these days are started over religion. I certainly can't think of a single American war were religion was the root cause (i.e. to spread the gospel of Jesus to another country). Or many more recent European wars. The Middle East probably has the worst of it, but it could well be argued that Israeli/Palestinian relations extend far beyond religion, and the Iraq wars were because of a dictatorial nut.
 
Soda Jack said:
Looking at this wiki as a source, it appears that war and atrocities for non-religious reasons have claimed more lives than wars for religious reasons by a huge margin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll
Click to expand...
Well, WWII was rooted in religious genocide because of the Holocaust. While Hitler didn't carry it out in the game of God, the attempted genocide of another religions people makes it religious based. Hitler wasn't an atheist.
 
Plainview said:
Well, WWII was rooted in religious genocide because of the Holocaust. While Hitler didn't carry it out in the game of God, the attempted genocide of another religions people makes it religious based. Hitler wasn't an atheist.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that make it atheist based then? Since, as you say, it was a guy, not doing it in the name of God, to a religious group of people?

btw, most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and motivations are more racially based than religiously based. Very much so for the Germans.
 
I don't know about you guys, but I'm sick of seeing all this ISIS hoopla all over my news feeds. We are treated like we are supposed to do something about it. But what can we do? Nothing. Except watch and be scared. A civilian can't prepare for a terrorist attack or war.

I have other things to worry about.
 
Plainview said:
Well, WWII was rooted in religious genocide because of the Holocaust. While Hitler didn't carry it out in the game of God, the attempted genocide of another religions people makes it religious based. Hitler wasn't an atheist.
Click to expand...
I don't know if I agree with that being classed as a religious war. While its true Judaism is a religion. Hitler viewed them as a race, and any other races besides white, as being biologically inferior. If anything he was attempting to use science(as completely untrue as it might have been) as his reason for genocide. If there was any religion that Hitler hated, it was Christianity. Because he looked at Christian beliefs as weak, and a detriment to his maniacal political goals, and ultimately his insane plans to conquer Europe, and the genocide of the Jews. If Im not mistaken Hitler, and the Nazis chose Norse gods as their religion, although that was likely because they believed the Norse gods were symbols of power. I believe WWII was simply caused by a mad man deciding to invade every country he set his sights on. There is no indication that religious beliefs were the cause of that. Unless you consider Nazism a religion, of which I hope to God you dont.
 
Last edited:
Plainview said:
What it comes down to, no matter what someone claims, the atrocities carried out in the name of whatever religion is the work of a madman, period. Claiming that it was the the name of Christianity, Islam, whatever, doesn't indict the religion as a whole. Overwhelmingly, religion is peaceful. I will say, there's more madmen carrying atrocities in the name if Islam in this day and age though.
Click to expand...
I agree. And contrary to these narcissistic maniacs beliefs, I believe that in say a century, they will be remembered as a dark mark in the history of Islam, not as holy martyrs. Admittedly, I know little about the teachings in the Quran. But other than Satanism, Im personally not aware of any large religion that promotes murder, and even Satanism is vague on the subject.
 
BDaddyK said:
PURELY OPINION I think most of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion are just the machinations of evil people who want/have/keep power, wealth and influence and use the guise of religion as a mean to that end.
Click to expand...

Is certainly possible.
 
Soda Jack said:
I don't know if I agree with that being classed as a religious war. While its true Judaism is a religion. Hitler viewed them as a race, and any other races besides white, as being biologically inferior. If anything he was attempting to use science(as completely untrue as it might have been) as his reason for genocide. If there was any religion that Hitler hated, it was Christianity. Because he looked at Christian beliefs as weak, and a detriment to his maniacal political goals, and ultimately his insane plans to conquer Europe, and the genocide of the Jews. If Im not mistaken Hitler, and the Nazis chose Norse gods as their religion, although that was likely because they believed the Norse gods were symbols of power. I believe WWII was simply caused by a mad man deciding to invade every country he set his sights on. There is no indication that religious beliefs were the cause of that. Unless you consider Nazism a religion, of which I hope to God you dont.
Click to expand...

Hitler was a Christian and very deep into Christianity. I would discuss further, but I've been drinking tonight and I don't feel like typing a wall of text. Apart from Hitler's beliefs, Jews consider themselves a race.
 
DarkPassenger said:
Hitler was a Christian and very deep into Christianity. I would discuss further, but I've been drinking tonight and I don't feel like typing a wall of text. Apart from what Hitler believed, Jews consider themselves a race.
Click to expand...
When he was young, he was a catholic. He did not promote Christianity in his rise to power. And good luck in getting anyone that is familiar with Christianity to believe Hitler followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. You would literally have to read the Bible, and come away believing that black is white to believe Hitler followed the teachings of Jesus Christ while he was a Nazi.
 
Soda Jack said:
When he was young, he was a catholic. He did not promote Christianity in his rise to power. And good luck in getting anyone that is familiar with Christianity to believe Hitler followed the teachings of Jesus Christ. You would literally have to read the Bible, and believe that black is white to believe Hitler followed the teachings of Jesus Christ while he was a Nazi.
Click to expand...

Hitler didn't follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, that fact is obvious.
 
DarkPassenger said:
Hitler didn't follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, that fact is obvious.
Click to expand...
Then he is not considered a Christian. Christians have a name for people who claim to be Jesus, or twist, add to, and change the teachings of Jesus, they are called cult leaders.
 
Soda Jack said:
Then he is not considered a Christian. Christians have a name for people who claim to be Jesus, or twist, add to, and change the teachings of Jesus, they are called cult leaders.
Click to expand...

I've never met a Christian who wasn't twisting the teachings of Jesus Christ, adding to the teachings and changing the teachings.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back