The Xbox Onesie

[oo Yungstar oo]

Overall, some very clear insight into how Spencer views the gaming industry and what he thinks the survivability of big budget games will need for the future.

you can buy a single player game now or in six months and it will still be a great single player game, buying many of the multiplayer games six months later might leave you struggling to find players as they moved onto the next big multiplayer game within weeks.

 

[oo Yungstar oo]

I was talking about their first party studios. SP is the strength of their studios.

single and multiplayer player are now the strength for Sony. i.e. it works if you have both. MS are heading away from both.

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

if memory serves, every AAA single player exclusive on PS4 this year has sold very well. so I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

Gravity Rush 2. Tales of Beseria, The Last Guardian, Nier, Ni-Oh all flopped.

But enough of that, i want to know what is your take on this:

The usual.

Halo games have campaigns. They can be played in co-op. It has a very good competitive mode which is quite popular. It used to have unlockables earned with exp as was the style in them days, but now they're unlocked with loot crates as is the style these days.

You can apply this to Minecraft, Forza, Gears, Killer Instinct etc.

This is referred to as a Games as a service. At Neogaf, this is done so derogatively.

Uncharted games have campaigns. They can't be played in co-op or Solo. It has a tacked on competitive mode which is forgettable. It used to have unlockables earned with exp, but now they're unlocked with loot crates.

This is referred to as a Single player focussed game, rather than one with a half baked multiplayer.

What this means for Xbox

Single player will be accompanied by multiplayer (co-op. competitive), split-screen will be more common. Loot crates.

What this means for Playstation

Games will lack feature sets common to those in the same genre by other publishers. Unfinished....Driveclub, Streetfighter 5 etc.

 

[yankeessuck]

single and multiplayer player are now the strength for Sony. i.e. it works if you have both. MS are heading away from both.

I disagree. Sony is going much more SP or SP focused. Microsoft is doing the opposite.

In both cases it makes sense. Sony has done MP focused and it hasn't worked. MS has done SP focused and it hasn't worked. The key is making the best games they can because both can point to 3rd party games to compliment whatever they are trying to do.

 

[Intellivision]

single and multiplayer player are now the strength for Sony. i.e. it works if you have both. MS are heading away from both.

PS4 has a huge install base lead, so in terms of MP usage, it will have much more sales and a bigger community for CoD, BF, FIFA and any other third party MP game.

In terms of first party MP games, MS' old stalwarts Halo, Gears and Forza are better than any Sony MP game. Sony has tried so many FPS games over the years to fill that void (shotgun approach of everything you can think of), and they always fail. The only franchise left that comes and goes every 3-4 years is KZ. All other attempts such as Resistance, SOCOM, MAG, those PC-port games like Dust are gone. And even non-shooters like LBP and Modnations Racers (attempts at non-shooter MP) have disappeared too. Sony even tried a fighting game and that didn't go well.

That's why Sony is gobbling up marketing deals with third parties. Everyone knows shooters are still the hot genre, and Sony doesn't have any in-house shooters to make their own bundle like those old KZ bundles.

So Sony's strategy is to promote SP games like GoW , UC and Bloodborne. But for shooters, partner with Activision or EA for shooter deals and bundles.

 

[oo Yungstar oo]

PlayStation has a bigger install base. Looking at NPD last month I would classify half of the top 10 as a game as a service with Ghost Recon being number one.

matters not, the point is that single and multiplayer sell, it points to MS not offering the SP games people want.

i want new Banjo/Conker and MS gave me Voodoo Vince, a game that many didn't know of until P3 said it was his favourite xbox game. they say they listen to the fans and yet close the Fable studio.

 

[oo Yungstar oo]

PS4 has a huge install base lead, so in terms of MP usage, it will have much more sales and a bigger community for CoD, BF, FIFA and any other third party MP game.

and a lot of that success can be put down to people wanting Sony exclusives, you know... single player games.

That's why Sony is gobbling up marketing deals with third parties. Everyone knows shooters are still the hot genre, and Sony doesn't have any in-house shooters to make their own bundle like those old KZ bundles.

Sony took over from MS who used to gobble up all those marketing deals on 360 and MS stupidly decided TV TV TV was the way forward.
that worked out well for them.

So Sony's strategy is to promote SP games like GoW , UC and Bloodborne. But for shooters, partner with Activision or EA for shooter deals and bundles.

such a good strategy to offer the best of both worlds don't you think?

 

[Typhoon20]

Disagree. How many PS4 copies did Destiny, Overwatch,Battlefield sell ? Was it more than Uncharted 4 ? No. Even HZD is getting to those numbers.

I cant believe Phil would voice such a factually wrong comment.Just look at Zelda. Bigger than ever.

And service based games are dominated by 3P. MS used to be great in that segment but they've completely lost their way. Look at the top 20 most played games. Even their once greatest franchises like Halo Gears arent up there. GaaS is not a magical model that will grant them success. You cant compete with that segment anymore. 3Ps are already doing that bigger and better. And those are on PS4 too. I wish them luck but I fear they are going about this the wrong way.

 

[SpartanDawgX1]

Your individual tastes is no reflection of industry trend lines.

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

Disagree. How many PS4 copies did Destiny, Overwatch,Battlefield sell ? Was it more than Uncharted 4 ? No.
.

Yes. Quite litterally all of those games are...and don't even need en masse giveaways.

MS used to be great in that segment but they've completely lost their way. Look at the top 20 most played games. Even their once greatest franchises like Halo Gears arent up there.

Minecrafts doing ok.Sony has none and Nintendo has Pokemon...a game with an emphasis on Social play.

3Ps are already doing that bigger and better.

Pretty sure third parties are doing bigger and better than Horizon and Gravity Rush too.

 

[Intellivision]

and a lot of that success can be put down to people wanting Sony exclusives, you know... single player games.

Not really. PS4 had outsold X1 right from the start. And at that time, each systems exclusives at launch were KI/Ryse vs. KZ/Knack. There's a lot more to sales and user base than strictly games.

If it was all about game library, then no new generation of systems would sell because the old gen has 10x more games, and the new gen's first year games are almost all up-ports.

Sony took over from MS who used to gobble up all those marketing deals on 360 and MS stupidly decided TV TV TV was the way forward.
that worked out well for them.

MS's key TV promotion was cable-in convenience, messing around as a community with apps like the NFL app where people can watch games and so online polls or whatever, and with the cable in you could sync your console to your providers cable guide listing so you can control TV through X1 instead of shutting it off and changing your TV to "Input: Game Mode or Input: TV" back and forth. Playing games and watching TV with picture-in-picture was great (they changed it with the last dashboard update).

If anything, Sony turned out to be the big TV promoter as well. Powers TV show (promoted by some suit and tie guy at E3.... cancelled), PS Vue cable service (I think it's doing ok?), PS Now streaming to consoles and TV sets (service cancelled for most platforms and TV sets), and last gen Sony even made a dedicated Playstation branded 3D TV set (dead after 6 months).

MS and Sony both cater to a similar gaming market. That's why both companies release similar systems, have similar games, apps, and strive for third party deals. The majority of third party games comes to both ecosystems.

Don't think Sony is some kind of unique beast. They want every gamer's dollar too. Last gen, it was all about SP games and unique games. This gen comes and it's all about dude-bro marketing deals for mainstream shooters like CoD.

such a good strategy to offer the best of both worlds don't you think?

Good if someone is a SP focused gamer. Bad if you are a MP gamer, as Sony has ditched all their unique first party MP games.

 

[Typhoon20]

Yes. Quite litterally all of those games are.

Nope. None of those sold more than UC4 on PS4,which has sold over 9m.

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

Nope. None of those sold more than UC4 on PS4,which has sold over 9m.

Pretty sure they have. In less time too.

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

The thing is, Phil isn't wrong about what he said. Horizon and Zelda did well, but again Watch Dogs 2 didn't, even if the campaign is awesome in my book. The first one is probably to blame. But I also recall that Dishonored 2 didn't do all too great either which is also a shame. And there are more. So there is truth to what Phil says here.

Thing is, if QB, SO, Ryse etc had sold like hotcakes, he probably would have said they still give SP only games a chance but sadly most of these games just didn't work out for them. Hell, Insomniac told a interviewer that they want to make Sunset Overdrive 2 but it's up to MS to greenlight it. I would say get on it MS! Can definitely work as GaaS too.

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

Correct me if i'm wrong but can't GaaS mean games that offer both a robust story mode and a MP mode?

Games As A Service has no set definition. But if it applies to games with multiplayer or DLC, then the following games are games as a service:

Horizon Zero Dawn
Gravity Rush 2
Nier
Ni-Oh
Persona 5
Halo Wars 2
Driveclub
Killzone 4
Uncharted 4
Bloodborne
Zelda BOTW

Everything.

Xbox exclusives atypically have both a campaign and multiplayer mode. At least since Live launched. It's more a raritude that there isn't a multiplayer, pretty much been this way for 17 years.

Halo
Brute Force
Gears
Forza
PGR
Minecraft
Crimson Skies
Bloodwake
Mechassault
Shadowrun
Kinect Sport
Perfect Dark
Crackdown
Too Human
Sunset Overdrive
Ryse
Conker
Viva Pinata
Halo Wars

vs

Alan Wake
Quantum Break
Ori
Azurik

Microsofts "problem" is that generally we all expect Halo, Gears, Forza etc to have the same modes they had 10-15 years ago.

 

[Typhoon20]

Pretty sure they have. In less time too.

Source ?

 

[yankeessuck]

List Wars!

You can't talk about anything on here without going full console war. Embarrassing.

 

[Intellivision]

The thing is, Phil isn't wrong about what he said. Horizon and Zelda did well, but again Watch Dogs 2 didn't, even if the campaign is awesome in my book. The first one is probably to blame. But I also recall that Dishonored 2 didn't do all too great either which is also a shame. And there are more. So there is truth to what Phil says here.

Thing is, if QB, SO, Ryse etc had sold like hotcakes, he probably would have said they still give SP only games a chance but sadly most of these games just didn't work out for them. Hell, Insomniac told a interviewer that they want to make Sunset Overdrive 2 but it's up to MS to greenlight it. I would say get on it MS! Can definitely work as GaaS too.

And that's the thing about gaming.

Even the biggest studio that churns out games (probably EA???) only has so many games it makes. So every game counts. If 1 or 2 games bomb, it can sink the ship to a degree.

So that's why game development is so strict for big companies. It takes lots of time and money and risk.

On the other hand, the companies I've worked for.... I'd say every one of them has had at least 500 products selling at any given moment. One company I worked for must have had 5,000! If the marketing department wants to introduce some new flavours the R&D dept came up with, it's not the end of the world if it succeeds or is a total flop.

Even if we launched 50 new products one year and just by bad luck it so happens all 50 did lousy. Not the end of the world. There's still the other 500 existing products that sell fine for YEARS. But we also have products that sell great, but make little profit. But that's ok, because there's 100s of other products that pick up the slack. Gaming is't like that. I don't see MS or Sony purposely releasing a money losing Fan-Service Game A in hopes next year gamers love them and ensure sales of Game B next year skyrocket.

It's not like gaming where it's a launch month sales spike and disc sales afterwards nosedive. From there, revenue comes from nickel and diming gamers with DLC for as long as possible.

In companies that sell normal everyday goods, some of these products can be the same thing for 10 years and sales can BE RISING even if it gets off to a slow start.

In video games, it always starts off fast and roller coasters downward. And with only a small number of games (products) most companies release every year, it makes management weary to only launch good ones that look like make money.

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

Source ?

Common knowledge?

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

And I see people mentioning games like Banjo, Conker etc, and I agree. I would LOVE to see a proper brand new Banjo or Conker game but if we go back to the whole thing about will it sell great? Very doubtful it will sadly. There's a bigger chance of Crimson Skies or Mech Assault returning that Banjo or Conker because those games will most definitely contain MP and undoubtedly sell much better.

When looking at it from a business perspective it makes so much sense but as a gamer it's really bad news. I'd love to see Microsoft's own Uncharted, God of War or Horizon or hell... a horror game and if it doesn't sell like hotcakes that would be a bummer but in the end would not matter to me. Except for that MS or Sony for that matter isn't going to bother with it again.

 

[Typhoon20]

Common knowledge?

Well you're wrong. Overwatch has 30m players, of which at least 50-60% PC. Probably at least 60%. That leaves console with at most 40% players which is 12 million. And that doesn't mean 12m copies sold. So less than that. Even if that's 10m at most divided between xbox/ps that gives PS at most 7m copies. Most likely 6 considering it's sold pretty well on xbox too.

But all of this is besides the point. You completely took something, even if you were right, and changed it to a pointless direction.
The point is Uncharted, HZD all sold incredibly well. Better than most popular MP games on the same platform (excluding COD, GTA5 etc) and HZD can get there with time. The point is that SP games CAN sell as much as some of the more popular MP games out there if they are GREAT.
Phil said ''these games don't have the same impact as they used to have'' while talking about Zelda. The biggest Zelda to date. With a 1:1 attach ratio. Uncharted 4 which sold more than 3,2,1.

Imagine if MS had these great SP games. Imagine Sony PR making these comments. Would we have replied in the same manner ?
We give gaf deserved flack but are we really all that different ? Being a fan of the brand is great but blind fanboyism hurts the brand more than it helps them.

 

[Rollins]

 

[yankeessuck]

Well you're wrong. Overwatch has 30m players, of which at least 50-60% PC. Probably at least 60%. That leaves console with at most 40% players which is 12 million. And that doesn't mean 12m copies sold. So less than that. Even if that's 10m at most divided between xbox/ps that gives PS at most 7m copies. Most likely 6 considering it's sold pretty well on xbox too.

But all of this is besides the point. You completely took something, even if you were right, and changed it to a pointless direction.
The point is Uncharted, HZD all sold incredibly well. Better than most popular MP games on the same platform (excluding COD, GTA5 etc) and HZD can get there with time. The point is that SP games CAN sell as much as some of the more popular MP games out there if they are GREAT.
Phil said ''these games don't have the same impact as they used to have'' while talking about Zelda. The biggest Zelda to date. With a 1:1 attach ratio. Uncharted 4 which sold more than 3,2,1.

Imagine if MS had these great SP games. Imagine Sony PR making these comments. Would we have replied in the same manner ?
We give gaf deserved flack but are we really all that different ? Being a fan of the brand is great but blind fanboyism hurts the brand more than it helps them.

Spencer's point wasn't that they can't sell as well it was that its more rare that they do.

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

Yep. That was good to read. Of course gaf being gaf (naturally not every poster there) managed to turn those tweets into something negative. Saying Phil was an amazing PR person, meaning it in a negative way and what not. Just because he isn't exactly saying what they want to hear it's a lie and what not, lol.

I understand that people are a bit skeptical about things he says, like being committed to first party when he has said that three years ago as well but come on, it's almost as if the guy can't do anything right for some. One even said he hoped Mattrick would come back. Hope that was a joke.

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

Well you're wrong. Overwatch has 30m players, of which at least 50-60% PC. Probably at least 60%. That leaves console with at most 40% players which is 12 million. And that doesn't mean 12m copies sold. So less than that. Even if that's 10m at most divided between xbox/ps that gives PS at most 7m copies. Most likely 6 considering it's sold pretty well on xbox too.

You aren't contesting battlefield or Destiny then?

The point is Uncharted, HZD all sold incredibly well. Better than most popular MP games on the same platform (excluding COD, GTA5 etc) and HZD can get there with time.

Firstly, Uncharted has multiplayer and loot crates. Can you explain how it isn't classed as a Games as a Service? Why did Sony ship the first game without multiplayer, then pull a 180 and add it for the sequel.

Thirdly Can you define for me what a Games as a service is in a universally applicable constant? I can't.

Secondly...H:ZD, didn't sell incredibly well, it sold about 30% better than Killzone 2 to a userbase twice as large, it did ok, but we seen better.

point is that SP games CAN sell as much as some of the more popular MP games out there if they are GREAT.

If you're comparing the best selling SP only games, why can't I compare the best selling multiplayer games?

First off we'd need to find out what SP only game is the best selling in the world. I have no idea. Angry birds? I just checked and apparently it has multiplayer. Off hand i'd say for multiplayer Minecraft and GTAV...if you can top those then you got game.

I'm not calling Zelda or HZD flops, but at best they trend around Assassins Creed levels...and I mean just the 360/PS3 or Xbone/PS4 version individually.

Phil said ''these games don't have the same impact as they used to have'' while talking about Zelda. The biggest Zelda to date. With a 1:1 attach ratio. Uncharted 4 which sold more than 3,2,1.

I can respond to this point more thoroughly, but unless you can define a GAAS as not describing a game with DLC or multiplayer neither of those games are not GAAS.

Imagine if MS had these great SP games.

I think if you look at Microsofts highest rated games, their best selling games they have both single player and multiplayer....and they always will, because they usually go that extra mile to do so.

Imagine Sony PR making these comments. Would we have replied in the same manner ?

Pretty sure Sony did for Driveclub and Streetfighter 5. Those titles problems weren't that they had DLC or multiplayer, it's that the base games were thin on content to begin with. Easily remedied by being F2P or $20 instead of $60. I'd wage the campaign content of Forza or Killer Instinct against those any day....and yet, to me Forza 7 is the same game as Forza 1 was in 2005. A driving game with a decent campaign, on and offline and I can download free and paid for content. I can apply it to PGR2 as well.

Was PGR2 a GAAS...because that had an amazing campaign..

 

[Sasquatch Montana]

We give gaf deserved flack but are we really all that different ? Being a fan of the brand is great but blind fanboyism hurts the brand more than it helps them.

I'd be happy to label games as GAAS and what isn't once given a universal definition.

What i'd like to know is why a third person Shooter from Sony isn't one and why one from MS is.

When i hear GAAS i think free to play. Killer Instinct. Not Halo and Gears. Halo and Gears have fantastic campaigns with the added benefit they are playable with friends. Their multiplayer is the same. This isn't a new development, so why this is so outrageous now is a mystery (not really, it's Scorpio angst)

This is what I expect from all MS first party, especially since thats what they've always done for the last 17 years. You want them to cull decade old staple features from their biggest IP because Sony didn't budget Horizon for a few servers? f*** off.

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

You guys do bring some good points. Uncharted 4 indeed has MP and loot crates, but do they cost money though? I do recall an article that said MP content for U4 was all free, maybe they meant upcoming DLC though. But yeah, basically as soon as they announce DLC for a game that isn't free it could be considered GaaS. Like it was said here, there is no real definition for GaaS yet. Or are we not counting DLC? Because then you could argue that Horizon is not GaaS. QB and Recore definitely aren't and SO probably neither.

 

[yankeessuck]

You guys do bring some good points. Uncharted 4 indeed has MP and loot crates, but do they cost money though? I do recall an article that said MP content for U4 was all free, maybe they meant upcoming DLC though. But yeah, basically as soon as they announce DLC for a game that isn't free it could be considered GaaS. Like it was said here, there is no real definition for GaaS yet. Or are we not counting DLC? Because then you could argue that Horizon is not GaaS. QB and Recore definitely aren't and SO probably neither.

Yes it has microtransactions.

Clearly having a great SP and MP is ideal but people act like you just snap your fingers and other modes just appear. You still have to decide where its best to put those resources and sometimes SP only or MP only is the way to go.

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

Yes it has microtransactions.

Clearly having a great SP and MP is ideal but people act like you just snap your fingers and other modes just appear. You still have to decide where its best to put those resources and sometimes SP only or MP only is the way to go.

Interesting. And almost surprising that Sony didn't had GG put in MP and micro transactions for Horizon ZD. Especially when GG had plenty of MP experience.

 

[postaboy]

Phil is right though. Xbox gamers only buy two things: Pew pew pew and sports games. why waste resources on SP only games when Xbox gamers don't buy them. Theres a reason why many SP games from MS have a hard time reaching a million copies.