What does the Bible *really* say about same-sex relationships?

And get this....I'm not knocking anyone's decision to believe. It's all good. But seriously, don't tell me there's proof or solid evidence. Just call it what it is....faith. You believe because you have "faith" in something that cannot be proven, cannot be backed, cannot be shown to be true due to lack of evidence or proof.

Faith. The cornerstone of any religion.

Faith:
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence:
 
I don't think we even fully understand what "Nothing" really is.

I think we understand in a vague way large Planets can cause a curve in Space around them. What if you had a vast amount of space with nothing in it, and just added a large planet like Jupiter. Would the apparent "Nothingness" be distorted and curved?

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/08/16/the-physics-of-nothing-the-phi/

"On the tiniest physical scales — the Planck scale — spacetime isn’t flat at all. Empty space itself vibrates and curves, and there is a fundamental uncertainty in the energy content — at any given time — of nothingness.

This quantum vacuum — on these very small scales — manifests this fundamental uncertainty by spontaneously creating pairs of particles-and-antiparticles for very brief amounts of time. "

I think one day we may discover that what we perceived as Nothing was a very elusive process occurring at the Quantum Mechanics level.
 
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And get this....I'm not knocking anyone's decision to believe. It's all good. But seriously, don't tell me there's proof or solid evidence. Just call it what it is....faith. You believe because you have "faith" in something that cannot be proven, cannot be backed, cannot be shown to be true due to lack of evidence or proof.

Faith. The cornerstone of any religion.

Faith:
There are plenty of historical landmarks from the Bible that are still here today. So to say there is "no" solid evidence is inaccurate.
 
There are plenty of historical landmarks from the Bible that are still here today. So to say there is "no" evidence is inaccurate.


I hope that's joke.


I mean, the presence of anything historical in fantasy doesn't make it factual.

If presence of something that does exist historically make the fiction factual.....then Abraham Lincoln was indeed a vampire hunter.


A few years ago, I read the Strain. A boeing 777 comes to JFK airport. The story involves the CDC. The story takes place in factual cities.
See...the presence of something real doesn't make the fictitious story real.




The evidence you speak of is evidence that the writers of the bible used real world locales in their stories. But again, no evidence that god exist, jesus walks on water, worldwide flood, giants, etc.
 
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lol,wut? There's plenty of nonsense in the bible.

There's no contradiction of truthful teachings anywhere in the Bible. If you can find any such "nonsense", please bring it up. Otherwise, this is just another false assertion on your part.

I can say I am god, and no one can disprove that. Does that make it true?

You could say that, but it would be trivially easy to demonstrably prove otherwise. You see, Christians don't believe simply because words on a page say so, they believe because there are good reasons, evidence, and personal experiences that (in light of a defeater) have no more reason to be rejected than any other cognitive faculties we properly basically believe in.

In short, there's great reasons/evidence that your claim is false, therefore it's easy to dismiss.

There is no evidence.

False. There's no proof (by design), but there's plenty of evidence. For example:

1. The beginning of the universe is evidence that something time less, space less, immaterial, and extremely powerful must have been the transcendent cause for it. This evidence is supported by both philosophical conclusions regarding the impossibility of an infinite past, and scientific proof of a finite past for any universe that is on-average expanding (which ours is).

2. The existence of objective morality in the world. If even one thing is ever objectively "good" or "bad", then it follows necessarily that objective morality exists. Most people affirm this, and even atheists affirm that if God exists, objective morality doesn't exist. Yet, atheists are some of the most vocal about morality, as they want to claim to be "moral" people, or "good" people. The problem is, with out God there *is* no right or wrong. There is no such thing as an "ought". You can't tell me I "ought" to not judge others, because there's no basis for morality. But we all know morality isn't just a social adaptation. We all know that it's factually 'good' to love a child, and it's factually 'better' to love that child than to molest it, rape it, and torture it for fun. But if God doesn't exist, then objective morality doesn't exist, and it's therefore factually no 'better' or 'worse' to love a child than to rape it... but we all *know* that is wrong. We all affirm it. We all affirm there are some things which are truly good, and some things which are truly bad... and even if there's just one objectively "good" or objectively "bad" thing in this world, it follows necessarily that God must exist as the foundation of that objective truth.

3. The fine-tuning of the universe. You do realize that the multi-verse theory is the scientific theory meant to attempt to explain away the fine tuning of our universe for life, right? There's no proof at all for the multi-verse theory. The theory goes something like this, "because it's so ridiculously unlikely that a universe like ours should exist with these finely tuned properties to allow life, there must be a plethora of universes which don't have those properties... yeah, that must be it. Surely it can't be by design, even though that's what it looks like."

4. The person of Jesus of Nazareth, and his miraculous life/death. Most historians (new testament critics even) agree that Jesus lived, died on the cross, was buried by Joseph of Aremathia in a known tomb, the tomb was found empty by some of his women followers, and that Jesus post-mortem appearances were what gave rise to the Christian faith. All naturalistic explanations for those historical facts have all universally been rejected. Things like, "the disciples stole the body", or "Jesus wasn't really dead" - all historically ad-hoc, and rejected. The truth is, there just is no good naturalistic explanation for the facts around Jesus life and death... and this is good evidence that what the Bible teaches is true, that is that Jesus was raised form the dead.

5. Personal experiences. I'm a successful man by all worldly standards. I've had all the regular medical tests run on me that most people do during a lifetime, and it's clear that I'm a sane, logically thinking person. I've had experiences which I have no reason to reject as false. I've come to know Jesus in the properly basic way the people of the Bible came to know God. In the absence of a defeater, I see no reason to assume these experiences are false.

This is all evidence for God. None of it is proof... but it's great evidence. So now tell me, what's your evidence that there isn't a God?

For example, other than what is written in the bible...there is no "evidence" that Jesus walked on water. And the bible is filled with such claims that there is no evidence, other than what is written. Where is there evidence of "angels"? Or that Lucifer was exiled from Heaven?

As are all historical documents, but that doesn't mean you out-right dismiss them. What you do is you look at them critically, and you use the same tools historians use to identify what's most probably true, vs. what's most probably false, or inconclusive. You're right that many claims in the Bible aren't well supported with other historical evidence or corroborating texts... but neither are they DISPROVEN. Additionally, many facts in the Bible *ARE* recognized as incredibly well established, and can be taken as historical fact... such as the facts I mentioned above in relation to the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

I can write any fiction, doesn't make it "evidence" of truth.

Right, but would you die for your fictions? Would multiple people attest to the same fiction? Using the tools historians use, you can identify things which are plausibly (even probably) true, due to multiple attestations, similar accounts, proper historical context, closeness to the events described, and hermeneutical analysis.

The scriptures hold up incredibly well under such scrutiny. Your claims do not. :)

Is there evidence that Mary was a virgin? Is there solid evidence that Jesus performed these miracles? Is there evidence that a clear world wide flood that killed off everything on the planet other than what was on this supposed boat?

There's historical evidence that Jesus was a miracle worker, yes. There's also evidence that there was some sort of flood which covered massive amounts of the world at some point... but honestly, that's all "in-house" discussion material. What matters is, "is there a god?", and there's plenty of strong evidence that suggests there is indeed a God.

Again, give me evidence, and not just words in the good book.

Look above.

And no, I don't know. I also don't know that Zeus was real or not. Just because I can't bring strong evidence that Zeus did not exist, doesn't mean....he did.

I know that Zeus is most plausibly not real, because we can now fly into the skies, and show he's not there. You see, there's plenty of great evidence for the non-existence of these man-made Gods... but you have yet to give me *any* evidence that the God of the Bible doesn't exist.

None of that is evidence of a god. I could easily spin it and say all this is evidence that earth was one big petri dish that aliens used for there experiments.

Sure, but that's ad-hoc and contrived. Aliens aren't metaphysically necessary beings, and there's no evidence for a petri dish, especially considering petri dishes are man-made physical objects. So this analogy really fails, and falls very flat.

Only because I told you I don't believe in god.

Yep.

All ancient religions have a form of people being spoken to by gods. What makes theirs any less valid than yours?

Plausibility, philosophical evidence, scientific evidence, as well as comparative analysis.
For example, Islam is very likely false because the Karaan's mythical depiction of Jesus is completely historically inaccurate. The book was written multiple hundreds of years after the event, and the claims it makes about the person of Jesus are historically most likely false.

Similarly, the concept of many ancient Gods are demonstrably false. Thor, Zeus, they're easy to falsify.

Finally, science can actually aid us in disproving many of the far east religions, like Taoism and buddism. Such religions often claim the world, or the universe are themselves 'divine', and therefore eternal, but that claim is now quite easily falsifiable. The world and the universe are not past eternal. There's strong evidence philosophically, and there's scientific proof that it's finite.

So yes, there are many, many, many strong reasons to NOT believe in other religions of the world, and there are very many, many strong reasons to affirm the truth of Christianity.

It's all a farfected claim, and any evidence you "claim" to present, can easily be debunked or brushed aside.

In your opinion, but I still have yet to see you provide *any* argument or evidence for the non-existance of God. All I've seen from you is a passing of the buck of 'burden of proof'. You assert your claims with no backing, and then attack mine without any rational reasons or evidence... so really, you're claims (so far) have been the far more irrational, easy to debunk, and easy to brush aside.

Doesn't need to be. Your scriptures are not the only religions of man. You're failing to see the point.

Not at all. I'm not failing to see that. I'm seeing strong reasons and evidence for the religion I believe in (not least of which, are my own rational personal experiences with Christ), and I'm seeing strong evidence and justification to *not* beleive in other world views which (in my opinion) have very strong evidence against them.

When I say "god", what makes you think I'm referring to the christian god?

What makes you assume that was my assumption?

Point is, you CANNOT prove me wrong.

Right. Nor can you PROVE me wrong, or any other Christian. It's irrational to speak of "prooving" one another wrong in this context. That's like asking someone to prove that we didn't pop into being 5 seconds ago with the appearance of age. You cannot disprove such a claim... but Ahkam's razor, rational arguments, reasonable evidence, and properly basic beliefs can certainly help us along there... and so far, I'm the only one of the two of us who's provided any evidence for my beliefs. You've shown you have none for yours.

Clearly, that's less rational than defending your world view with facts, philosophy, science, and evidence as I have today.

A god spoke to me yesterday. I don't believe in your christian god, but this deity did speak to me. Prove. Me. Wrong.

I don't have to.

There's no multiple attestation. You've given me strong reasons to doubt your claims here, as you've already made it clear that you don't believe in a God. If you did, you wouldn't be asking me to prove you wrong, you'd be telling me with awe about an experience that changed you. You've never mentioned "what" was spoken to you by this diety, nor have you given me (or anyone else here) any reason to believe you. Instead, you've provided us ample reason NOT to believe you.
So do I need to prove you wrong? Of course not. Is it demonstrably less PLAUSIBLE that God spoke to you? Sure is... and that's all I need.
 
There's no contradiction of truthful teachings anywhere in the Bible. If you can find any such "nonsense", please bring it up. Otherwise, this is just another false assertion on your part.



You could say that, but it would be trivially easy to demonstrably prove otherwise. You see, Christians don't believe simply because words on a page say so, they believe because there are good reasons, evidence, and personal experiences that (in light of a defeater) have no more reason to be rejected than any other cognitive faculties we properly basically believe in.

In short, there's great reasons/evidence that your claim is false, therefore it's easy to dismiss.



False. There's no proof (by design), but there's plenty of evidence. For example:

1. The beginning of the universe is evidence that something time less, space less, immaterial, and extremely powerful must have been the transcendent cause for it. This evidence is supported by both philosophical conclusions regarding the impossibility of an infinite past, and scientific proof of a finite past for any universe that is on-average expanding (which ours is).

2. The existence of objective morality in the world. If even one thing is ever objectively "good" or "bad", then it follows necessarily that objective morality exists. Most people affirm this, and even atheists affirm that if God exists, objective morality doesn't exist. Yet, atheists are some of the most vocal about morality, as they want to claim to be "moral" people, or "good" people. The problem is, with out God there *is* no right or wrong. There is no such thing as an "ought". You can't tell me I "ought" to not judge others, because there's no basis for morality. But we all know morality isn't just a social adaptation. We all know that it's factually 'good' to love a child, and it's factually 'better' to love that child than to molest it, rape it, and torture it for fun. But if God doesn't exist, then objective morality doesn't exist, and it's therefore factually no 'better' or 'worse' to love a child than to rape it... but we all *know* that is wrong. We all affirm it. We all affirm there are some things which are truly good, and some things which are truly bad... and even if there's just one objectively "good" or objectively "bad" thing in this world, it follows necessarily that God must exist as the foundation of that objective truth.

3. The fine-tuning of the universe. You do realize that the multi-verse theory is the scientific theory meant to attempt to explain away the fine tuning of our universe for life, right? There's no proof at all for the multi-verse theory. The theory goes something like this, "because it's so ridiculously unlikely that a universe like ours should exist with these finely tuned properties to allow life, there must be a plethora of universes which don't have those properties... yeah, that must be it. Surely it can't be by design, even though that's what it looks like."

4. The person of Jesus of Nazareth, and his miraculous life/death. Most historians (new testament critics even) agree that Jesus lived, died on the cross, was buried by Joseph of Aremathia in a known tomb, the tomb was found empty by some of his women followers, and that Jesus post-mortem appearances were what gave rise to the Christian faith. All naturalistic explanations for those historical facts have all universally been rejected. Things like, "the disciples stole the body", or "Jesus wasn't really dead" - all historically ad-hoc, and rejected. The truth is, there just is no good naturalistic explanation for the facts around Jesus life and death... and this is good evidence that what the Bible teaches is true, that is that Jesus was raised form the dead.

5. Personal experiences. I'm a successful man by all worldly standards. I've had all the regular medical tests run on me that most people do during a lifetime, and it's clear that I'm a sane, logically thinking person. I've had experiences which I have no reason to reject as false. I've come to know Jesus in the properly basic way the people of the Bible came to know God. In the absence of a defeater, I see no reason to assume these experiences are false.

This is all evidence for God. None of it is proof... but it's great evidence. So now tell me, what's your evidence that there isn't a God?



As are all historical documents, but that doesn't mean you out-right dismiss them. What you do is you look at them critically, and you use the same tools historians use to identify what's most probably true, vs. what's most probably false, or inconclusive. You're right that many claims in the Bible aren't well supported with other historical evidence or corroborating texts... but neither are they DISPROVEN. Additionally, many facts in the Bible *ARE* recognized as incredibly well established, and can be taken as historical fact... such as the facts I mentioned above in relation to the person of Jesus of Nazareth.



Right, but would you die for your fictions? Would multiple people attest to the same fiction? Using the tools historians use, you can identify things which are plausibly (even probably) true, due to multiple attestations, similar accounts, proper historical context, closeness to the events described, and hermeneutical analysis.

The scriptures hold up incredibly well under such scrutiny. Your claims do not. :)



There's historical evidence that Jesus was a miracle worker, yes. There's also evidence that there was some sort of flood which covered massive amounts of the world at some point... but honestly, that's all "in-house" discussion material. What matters is, "is there a god?", and there's plenty of strong evidence that suggests there is indeed a God.



Look above.



I know that Zeus is most plausibly not real, because we can now fly into the skies, and show he's not there. You see, there's plenty of great evidence for the non-existence of these man-made Gods... but you have yet to give me *any* evidence that the God of the Bible doesn't exist.



Sure, but that's ad-hoc and contrived. Aliens aren't metaphysically necessary beings, and there's no evidence for a petri dish, especially considering petri dishes are man-made physical objects. So this analogy really fails, and falls very flat.



Yep.



Plausibility, philosophical evidence, scientific evidence, as well as comparative analysis.
For example, Islam is very likely false because the Karaan's mythical depiction of Jesus is completely historically inaccurate. The book was written multiple hundreds of years after the event, and the claims it makes about the person of Jesus are historically most likely false.

Similarly, the concept of many ancient Gods are demonstrably false. Thor, Zeus, they're easy to falsify.

Finally, science can actually aid us in disproving many of the far east religions, like Taoism and buddism. Such religions often claim the world, or the universe are themselves 'divine', and therefore eternal, but that claim is now quite easily falsifiable. The world and the universe are not past eternal. There's strong evidence philosophically, and there's scientific proof that it's finite.

So yes, there are many, many, many strong reasons to NOT believe in other religions of the world, and there are very many, many strong reasons to affirm the truth of Christianity.



In your opinion, but I still have yet to see you provide *any* argument or evidence for the non-existance of God. All I've seen from you is a passing of the buck of 'burden of proof'. You assert your claims with no backing, and then attack mine without any rational reasons or evidence... so really, you're claims (so far) have been the far more irrational, easy to debunk, and easy to brush aside.



Not at all. I'm not failing to see that. I'm seeing strong reasons and evidence for the religion I believe in (not least of which, are my own rational personal experiences with Christ), and I'm seeing strong evidence and justification to *not* beleive in other world views which (in my opinion) have very strong evidence against them.



What makes you assume that was my assumption?



Right. Nor can you PROVE me wrong, or any other Christian. It's irrational to speak of "prooving" one another wrong in this context. That's like asking someone to prove that we didn't pop into being 5 seconds ago with the appearance of age. You cannot disprove such a claim... but Ahkam's razor, rational arguments, reasonable evidence, and properly basic beliefs can certainly help us along there... and so far, I'm the only one of the two of us who's provided any evidence for my beliefs. You've shown you have none for yours.

Clearly, that's less rational than defending your world view with facts, philosophy, science, and evidence as I have today.



I don't have to.

There's no multiple attestation. You've given me strong reasons to doubt your claims here, as you've already made it clear that you don't believe in a God. If you did, you wouldn't be asking me to prove you wrong, you'd be telling me with awe about an experience that changed you. You've never mentioned "what" was spoken to you by this diety, nor have you given me (or anyone else here) any reason to believe you. Instead, you've provided us ample reason NOT to believe you.
So do I need to prove you wrong? Of course not. Is it demonstrably less PLAUSIBLE that God spoke to you? Sure is... and that's all I need.
awww skippy
 
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At first I came into the thread hoping to see a good discussion...

then it turned into a creationist debate.

No thanks.
 
As well you should....we cannot disprove the existence of FSM, therefore, he must exist.

Again, there's good evidence there's NOT a FSM, therefore there's solid grounds to believe it doesn't exist.

The Christian doesn't believe simply because there's no good evidence AGAINST the existence of God, the Christian believes because of the ample evidence there IS a God.

1. The Kalam cosmological argument. Strong evidence that our universe came into being 13+ billion years ago. All time, matter, space, energy - all of it came into being at the singularity. There's both philosophical evidence, and scientific proof for this. God's the best explanation, as the cause of all things popping into being must be non-caused, time less, space less, immaterial, etc... all properties typically associated with God.

2. The fine tuning. It's more probably that this world and the universe was designed, than it is that it came about by chance or that it's somehow necessary as part of it's own being.

3. Objective morality. It's far more plausible that morality is in fact objective, and it is in fact objectively "better" to love a child than it is to rape and molest that child... but if loving a child and torturing it for fun are morally neutral, then it follows God doesn't exist... the problem is, we all know that's not morally neutral. It's better to love the child. We all know that, and affirm that. Therefore, it's far more plausible that morality is rooted in something objective, and that's most likely God.

4. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. There's strong historical backing for many facts around Jesus' life and death which are best explained by God raising Him from the dead. This is great evidence for the existence of God, and for the validity of Jesus' claims.

5. Personal experiences. Why should Christians doubt their personal experiences with God, in lack of a defeater? We are provably rational, sane individuals. For us to doubt such experiences would be for you to doubt your sense of sight, or other cognitive functions. It's properly basic. We are completely in our rights and in rational standing to believe that our experiences are veridical.

...so where's your evidence against God? I have yet to see any.

Also, why is it that so many atheists (like yourself) shy away from any intelligent conversation, and instead resort to dismissive sarcasm, and witless banter? Are you incapable of intellectual conversation around this topic, or are you just completely ill prepared to speak rationally and thoughtfully about your views, and therefore resort to such childish tactics? Just curious... but at least you're not alone. Many atheists paint themselves into a corner like that, and can't resort to rational defenses... so they rely on other such tactics. Too bad, really, because I genuinely want to engage in thought-provoking discussion... not silly, adolescent playground tactics.
 
Where's real world evidence outside of bible of the following (and this is just a bit, there's so much more):

1. The Noah story.
2. Jesus is son of god.
3. Jesus walked on water.
4. The christian account of god is the true account of god.
5. Jesus resurrected.
6. Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus birth.
7. Job had this intense conversation with god.
8. That god likes the smell of burning flesh.
9. Moses parted waters.
10. Ten plagues.

and on and on

Again, outside of what's written in the good book or documents related to the book.
 
At first I came into the thread hoping to see a good discussion...

then it turned into a creationist debate.

No thanks.

I'd love to get it back on course. I'm happy to say that Christians and atheists don't agree on world-view. I also am happy to admit that atheists are not irrational in their beliefs, and neither are Christians... so let's leave it there. That's not really the point of this thread anyway.

The point of the thread was to discuss (among Christians) what the Bible really teaches us about homosexuality. So many Christians are getting it wrong today, and I think we need to have a dialog about it.

So please, if you've got something you want to share, or if you think there's some truth you'd like to get to (or even questions you'd like to ask) - let's get this thing back on topic. I'm game for it. That was my intention all along.
 
I hope that's joke.


I mean, the presence of anything historical in fantasy doesn't make it factual.

If presence of something that does exist historically make the fiction factual.....then Abraham Lincoln was indeed a vampire hunter.


A few years ago, I read the Strain. A boeing 777 comes to JFK airport. The story involves the CDC. The story takes place in factual cities.
See...the presence of something real doesn't make the fictitious story real.




The evidence you speak of is evidence that the writers of the bible used real world locales in their stories. But again, no evidence that god exist, jesus walks on water, worldwide flood, giants, etc.
The miracles of Jesus were witnessed by people, in some cases thousands of people. How many witnesses does it take to be convicted of a crime?The answer is one witness. So you choose to believe that the guilt of someone can be proven by a witness or two, but refuse to believe the thousands of witnesses to Jesus Christ. I have been witness to what I consider 3 miracles in my life alone.

I feel sorry for you because you have no hope past your lifetime. I think you in reality deny God because you want to run your own life. But who will you turn to when the bad health of you or your loved ones goes beyond what medicine can heal? What will you do if you lose control of your life? God loves you despite your rebellion, just like a good father. With an open heart and mind, read one of the Gospels (I recommend John). Then in a simple prayer of faith repent your sins and ask Jesus to come into your heart. It will change your life forever, from the inside out.
 
Also, why is it that so many atheists (like yourself) shy away from any intelligent conversation, and instead resort to dismissive sarcasm, and witless banter? Are you incapable of intellectual conversation around this topic, or are you just completely ill prepared to speak rationally and thoughtfully about your views, and therefore resort to such childish tactics? Just curious... but at least you're not alone. Many atheists paint themselves into a corner like that, and can't resort to rational defenses... so they rely on other such tactics. Too bad, really, because I genuinely want to engage in thought-provoking discussion... not silly, adolescent playground tactics.

I don't shy away from an intelligent conversation...but there is none to be had. Everything you listed doesn't point to a christian god. I mean...objective morality as "evidence" of god? Seriously? Let alone a christian god? Why not god(s)?
Life and death of Jesus? Really, you mean the few writings by a select few, even though supposedly thousands were affected by Jesus, yet no other account of his deeds?
 
Where's real world evidence outside of bible of the following (and this is just a bit, there's so much more):

1. The Noah story.
2. Jesus is son of god.
3. Jesus walked on water.
4. The christian account of god is the true account of god.
5. Jesus resurrected.
6. Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus birth.
7. Job had this intense conversation with god.
8. That god likes the smell of burning flesh.
9. Moses parted waters.
10. Ten plagues.

and on and on

Again, outside of what's written in the good book or documents related to the book.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Even if there was literally ZERO extra-biblical evidence for such claims outside of the Bible, that doesn't DISPROVE them, nor does it DISPROVE Christianity. Not at all.

Similarly, even if the Bible is completely false and completely man-made (which I don't grant), that doesn't at all imply God doesn't exist. You have to deal with the arguments for God's existance, and you haven't done that.

You also haven't given *any* proof or even evidence that the Bible is false, or that God doesn't/can't exist. You've provided nothing to support your claims.

So please, if you wish to continue the discussion (which I'm fine dropping as we don't agree - and that's fine) - you really need to do better. You need to give some arguments, or some evidence for your world view. So far, again, you've provided nothing, so if this were a formal debate - you'd be deeply in the hole right now.
 
The miracles of Jesus were witnessed by people, in some cases thousands of people. How many witnesses does it take to be convicted of a crime?The answer is one witness. So you choose to believe that the guilt of someone can be proven by a witness or two, but refuse to believe the thousands of witnesses to Jesus Christ. I have been witness to what I consider 3 miracles in my life alone.

I feel sorry for you because you have no hope past your lifetime. I think you in reality deny God because you want to run your own life. But who will you turn to when the bad health of you or your loved ones goes beyond what medicine can heal? What will you do if you lose control of your life? God loves you despite your rebellion, just like a good father. With an open heart and mind, read one of the Gospels (I recommend John). Then in a simple prayer of faith repent your sins and ask Jesus to come into your heart. It will change your life forever, from the inside out.


And where are those eye witness accounts other than what's in the bible? Thousands of witnesses, yet no one else wrote about him.
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Even if there was literally ZERO extra-biblical evidence for such claims outside of the Bible, that doesn't DISPROVE them, nor does it DISPROVE Christianity. Not at all.


And we're back to my point....god spoke to me. It's true. Not your god, but a god.
I don't have evidence, but absence of evidence doesn't disprove me.

You also haven't given *any* proof or even evidence that the Bible is false, or that God doesn't/can't exist. You've provided nothing to support your claims.
I don't have to, the same way you can't prove or evidence the bible is factual.
 
I don't shy away from an intelligent conversation...but there is none to be had.

What makes you say that? Many people here seem completely capable of rational, intelligent discussion... though, of course, you haven't shown that with your sarcasm and dismissive attitude. But I've seen you be rational before, so I don't see any reason to think your statement here is true.

Everything you listed doesn't point to a christian god.

That's false, though. The evidence around the life, death, resurrection, and rise of Christian faith is indeed evidence of the Christian God. You're quite right that many of the other bits of evidence don't directly point to a Christian God, but it's a cumulative suite of evidence. The rest of the evidence supports other great monotheism religions, but the personal experiences and the life/death/resurrection of Jesus do indeed point to a Christian God, not some other.

I mean...objective morality as "evidence" of god? Seriously? Let alone a christian god? Why not god(s).

Ahkhams razor tells us there's no need to multiply an explanation arbitrarily, so there's no need to invoke multiple Gods... but yes, objective morality cannot exist without God... yet we all affirm inherent value in people. We all affirm some things are truly good, and some are truly bad. You have to ask yourself - is anything truly good or truly bad? If the answer is 'yes', it follows that God exists. If the answer is 'no', then you have no right to condemn a murdering rapist who tortures children, because without God, there is no objective morality with which to measure "good" or "bad" against... do you really want to affirm that a raping child torturer is no worse than a loving mother? Is that what you really believe? If not, then you should believe in God.

Life and death of Jesus? Really, you mean the few writings by a select few, even though supposedly thousands were affected by Jesus, yet no other account of his deeds?

1. Jesus never traveled more than a couple hundred miles in his lifetime.
2. Jesus was a poor, humble man.
3. Jesus never was an elected official, never had man-given power by title, etc.

Yet, Jesus is the single most influential person to ever have existed.
Yet, there's no naturalistic explination for the facts surrounding Jesus death, burial, post-mortem appearances, and rise/spread of Christianity.
Yet, Christianity is the single most successful movement in history.

Yeah, that's evidence of something 'different'... and if you already believe in God (as the other arguments suggest), then it's not an unreasonable conclusion that God raised Jesus from the dead to fulfill his Claims.
 
And we're back to my point....god spoke to me. It's true. Not your god, but a god.
I don't have evidence, but absence of evidence doesn't disprove me.

And again I say, there's great reason, and evidence to doubt you. This is not parallel to the scriptures.

I don't have to, the same way you can't prove or evidence the bible is factual.

I cannot prove God's existence, but there's plenty of evidence for it, as I've mentioned. I have provided evidence for the existence of God, and for the validity of the claims by Jesus of Nazareth... you, however, have provided nothing but assertions.

So far, you haven't provided one argument for the non-existence of God.
So far, you haven't provided one shred of evidence for the non-existence of God.
So far, you haven't provided any defeater for the arguments I've laid out.
So far, you haven't provided any evidence or defeater for any of the premises I've laid out.

On your world view, you have to accept that the world popped into being from nothing, and by nothing. That's worse than magic.

On your worldview, you have to believe that Hitler and Mother Theresa are objectively morally equals in terms of "good" and "bad".

On your world view, you have no rational explanation for Jesus' life, death, postmortem appearances, and rise of Christianity.

On your world view, you also have no evidence or argument to suggest why people should abandon their own personal experiences relating to God.

Don't you owe it to others in this forum (if not to yourself) to have better reasons for your world view? Don't you have *some* logical reasons, evidence, or justification for your views? If not, I don't see how you can imply anyone with theistic beliefs is in anyway acting irrationally... as it seems, you've been the barer of most of the irrationality today in this discussion. You hold to a world view you can't support.
 
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I cannot prove God's existence, but there's plenty of evidence for it, as I've mentioned. I have provided evidence for the existence of God, and for the validity of the claims by Jesus of Nazareth... you, however, have provided nothing but assertions.


My main issue is that the Bible is not EVIDENCE, in the same light that people of faith tend to dismiss evolution because we didn't observe it.

No one "observes" God, it is a belief, a faith. Evolution isn't observed, but there is backable, traceable PROOF that it happened.


So, in my eyes, the Bible is not proof God exists, but rather a collection of Anecdotal evidence combined to form a belief structure. That is fine, I am not knocking it, but apart from Physical locales, and second hand accounts, the Bible is largely a word of mouth transcription of history as translated, or perceived by certain groups of varying degrees of religious authors. Not one person wrote it, not one person recorded the stories.... It is an interpretation of events, likely most based on factual occurrences, but embellished.

Every play the game "telephone" in grade school? Say a phrase to one person and see how distorted it is on the other end of the chain of kids after being passed down?
 
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My main issue is that the Bible is not EVIDENCE, in the same light that people of faith tend to dismiss evolution because we didn't observe it.

No one "observes" God, it is a belief, a faith. Evolution isn't observed, but there is backable, traceable PROOF that it happened.


So, in my eyes, the Bible is not proof God exists, but rather a collection of Anecdotal evidence combined to form a belief structure. That is fine, I am not knocking it, but apart from Physical locales, and second hand accounts, the Bible is largely a word of mouth transcription of history as translated, or perceived by certain groups of varying degrees of religious authors. Not one person wrote it, not one person recorded the stories.... It is an interpretation of events, likely most based on factual occurrences, but embellished.

Every play the game "telephone" in grade school? Say a phrase to one person and see how distorted it is on the other end of the chain of kids after being passed down?


Amen.
 
And where are those eye witness accounts other than what's in the bible? Thousands of witnesses, yet no one else wrote about him.
The accounts of the life of Jesus were charged to a select few in the church(some of which were disciples of Jesus) and these are the accounts that have survived to this day. Keep in mind, these are honest people that rebuke lying as a sin against God.
 
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24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. (Romans 1.24-32 NRSV)


Three times Paul writes that “God gave them over” as a consequence to their unbelief. God gave them over to sexual impurity because they did not have a high opinion of God, did not praise God, did not honor God, did not glorify Him as God, and did not give Him thanks (see Romans 1.21-24). God gave them over to shameful lusts (see Romans 1.26) because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator (see Romans 1.25-26). God gave them over to a depraved mind to do what ought not to be done because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God (see Romans 1.2:cool:. God giving them over is His judgment upon their unbelief and rebellion.

The word translated “gave them over” or “gave them up” is a word that basically means “to give into the hands of another, to give over into one’s power, or to deliver one up to the custody of another.” What Paul is saying here is that because of their unbelief, because they refused to honor the Creator as God, because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, because they preferred to worship and serve created things rather than the Creator, because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, God gave them over to the power and the custody of sexual immorality, shameful lusts, and to a depraved mind.


God will hand mankind as a people and us as individuals over to the power and custody of sexual immorality, of shameful desires, and a depraved mind to do all sorts of things that are not right to do. What this means is that the immorality of mankind is not simply sin run amuck. The immorality of mankind is the judgment of God upon an unbelieving, idol worshipping humanity.


God is not just allowing mankind to experience the consequences of their sin, but He is actively handing them over to the power of immorality, shameful lusts, and a depraved mind. You have to let that percolate a little bit. The immorality of mankind, the degrading passions, the greed and malice, the pride and arrogance, the strife and slander, and the senselessness and ruthlessness of mankind is not just God letting us do what we want to do and reaping the consequences of our sin. But it is His judgment upon us for our refusal to worship and serve Him alone. When we refuse to honor the Lord as God and worship created things instead of the Creator, His judgment upon us is to hand us over to the power of sin.


The mystery of Romans 1 and Ephesians 4 is that when we refuse to honor the Lord as God and worship and serve creation instead of the Creator, God hands us over to the power of what we really want, our shameful lusts, only to discover that we have become enslaved by the very thing we thought we wanted.


But what Romans 1 tells us is that the real danger of sin is that God may give us over to it, and the very sin that we think we are enjoying will actually begin to have power over us. And eventually, we will either not be able to get out of it or not even want to. It will have us.




The first value of knowing this truth is that is causes us to rejoice in our own salvation. This, the words of Romans 1.24-32, would be our story if not for the grace of God in our lives. If God had not reached out to us and rescued us and redeemed us, we have been given over to the power of sexual impurity, shameful desires, and a depraved mind to do all sorts of things that we not ought to do. When we realize that the god of this world had blinded our eyes so that we could not see the light of the glory of the gospel, and that we would have never seen it if God had not made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (see 2 Corinthians 4.4-6), and that we would still be doing the things that deserve death and applauding others who practice them (see Romans 1.32), it makes me say “Thank you God for rescuing me.” The way this applies to life is that it gives a new heartbeat to worship. It brings to life the words of the old hymn,
I was sinking deep in sin, far from the peaceful shore,
Very deeply stained within, sinking to rise no more,
But the Master of the sea, heard my despairing cry,
From the waters lifted me, now safe am I. (From Love Lifted Me)
He reached in there and pulled us out. If He had not pulled us out, look where we would still be. Romans 1 would be your life if He had not rescued you!
http://fbcbenbrook.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/god-gave-them-over-romans-1-24-32/
 
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Roman's Road: The Gospel of Grace
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.” We must all realize that we are sinners and that we need forgiveness. We cannot come to God on our own because we always ‘fall short’ of His perfect standard and are not worthy of God’s grace.

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Through Jesus, God gave us a way to be saved from our sins. God showed us His love by giving us the potential for life through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross.

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” There is a penalty we will have to pay if we remain sinners, we will die and be separated from God forever. However, if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and repent of our sins, we will have eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10 “That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Just confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that He paid for your sins and God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved!

Romans 10:13 “For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” There are no religious formulas or rituals -- Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved!

Roman’s Road: Are You Ready to Accept God’s Gift of Salvation?
If you truly believe the message of the Gospel of Grace, and want to accept God’s gift of salvation right now, it's a matter of repenting of your sins and turning the rest of your life over to Jesus Christ. Again, this is not a ritual based on any specific words or prayers, but rather, a willful decision and a sincere step of faith. Here’s a simple prayer that will help you express your sincere desire to be saved:
Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again.
I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, proving only He could pay completely for my sins.
I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.
 
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My main issue is that the Bible is not EVIDENCE, in the same light that people of faith tend to dismiss evolution because we didn't observe it.

That's not really relevant, as that's not a position I've defended here today, nor is it relevant to the thread (which is sorely off track). That said, I will say that no one's claiming the Bible is (by itself) evidence of anything divine... but it is a good source of antiquity. It's not ONE BOOK, but a collection of manuscripts over the years. Historians believe that the biblical accounts of some historical events are actually quite strongly supported. So, if you don't look at the bible as the inspired truth of God, but just as another collection of manuscripts form the past, the historical relevance and significance cannot be dismissed.

For example, no historian believes the Bible cannot be trusted for any historical information. It's a book from antiquity like any other, except it has the added benefit of being a collection of books, and not just one by a single author. It spans many decades, and is actually a really strong historical source. Nothing that the Bible mentions has been proven to be historically false, yet *many* of the Bibles teachings have been historically verified.

No one "observes" God, it is a belief, a faith. Evolution isn't observed, but there is backable, traceable PROOF that it happened.

Well, I wouldn't agree with your assertions there. I think God can be "observed", but not scientifically... so if that's what you mean, yes, I agree with that. As for Evolution, it's really an accordion term. It means more than most give it credit. For example, ever Christian believes that they are the result of an ancestor who's not the same as them. That's evolution... and when scientists speak of evolution as being a "fact", that's what they mean. Yes, we factually know that things change from ancestor to ancestor.

The "tree of evolution", however, is fraught with problems and issues. There's no proof whatsoever that it's anywhere near accurate. Similarly, there's actually not great evidence that life forms of our complexity could have evolved over merely 13+ billion years. The odds of that happening are so astronomically high, you could consider it miraculous to have occurred in such a short period of time, and the miraculous is evidence for God.

So, in my eyes, the Bible is not proof God exists, but rather a collection of Anecdotal evidence combined to form a belief structure. That is fine, I am not knocking it, but apart from Physical locales, and second hand accounts, the Bible is largely a word of mouth transcription of history as translated, or perceived by certain groups of varying degrees of religious authors. Not one person wrote it, not one person recorded the stories.... It is an interpretation of events, likely most based on factual occurrences, but embellished.

You've really jumped to some unfounded conclusions here.

No, the Bible isn't proof of God. I'd never claim otherwise. That much is true.

Your other contentions, however, don't seem supported at all. You claim that the Bible is merely anecdotal evidence combined with a belief structure, but based on what? You're own opinion? The fact that it's not written by one person actually makes it MORE historically credible, because you're getting provably multiple attestations, and accounts. These multiple attestations and accounts are especially valid and historically sound for the facts I outlined around Jesus' life, death, burial, and postmortem appearances, as well as the rise of Christianity.

When you say, "likely embellished", that's when you really lose me, because you've given no evidence for that claim. Certainly any book of antiquity could have embellishments, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You identify what are likely to be embellishments, and you identify what are likely not embellishments.

Every play the game "telephone" in grade school? Say a phrase to one person and see how distorted it is on the other end of the chain of kids after being passed down?

This is a VERY common fallacious retort. We have the dead sea scrolls which prove that the words we have in the Bible today are over 98% accurate from their original writings, and the original oral traditions come from a time and place where it was absolutely critical to deliver the messages properly... so we also have good historical grounds to trust the accuracy of oral traditions. We do not have such a culture today, so it's not directly comparable. In any case, we do know - historically, verifiably - the Bible we have today has not been "lost in translation". None of the unconfirmed blips in the otherwise completed verified texts give any doubt to the theological significance of the teachings, and none of the unconfirmed remaining 2% of the scriptures left to be historically verified impact the facts around the life, death, burial, post-mortem appearances and rise of Christian faith as depicted in the Bible.

Again, this is a very common, yet very fallacious position to take. It's just intellectually ignorant to make any analogous claim between Biblical texts and the game "telephone". I don't blame you, though, as many people do. It's easy to fall into the trap of many.
 
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