Xbox One Hotchips revisited and XBox One Speculative discussion

I think this is the quote that hurts mister x and puresoul more than anything

[QUOTEAndrew Goosen first confirms that both Xbox One and PS4 graphics tech is derived from the same AMD "Island" family before addressing the Microsoft console's apparent GPU deficiency in depth][/QUOTE]
 
Pure speculation? The APU fused on the Xbox One is using an W2W (wafer 2 wafer) multi-module design that allows stacking of one chip on another. The first layer wafer is dedicated to the 28nm HPM Main SOC which was revealed during Hot Chip 2013 with 8 Jaguar cores and a modified Radeon HD 6670 GPU with DX11.1 and OpenGL 3.0 support. The layer beneath it is dedicated to the stacked discrete GPU and the final wafer layer is dedicated to the 32 MB of ESRAM.
 
Pure speculation? The APU fused on the Xbox One is using an W2W (wafer 2 wafer) multi-module design that allows stacking of one chip on another. The first layer wafer is dedicated to the 28nm HPM Main SOC which was revealed during Hot Chip 2013 with 8 Jaguar cores and a modified Radeon HD 6670 GPU with DX11.1 and OpenGL 3.0 support. The layer beneath it is dedicated to the stacked discrete GPU and the final wafer layer is dedicated to the 32 MB of ESRAM.

Believe™
 
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You can do dynamic resolutions on PC and/or PS4 if you're so inclined. Hell you can do it on 360 and a few games do (Tekken, DOA, NG) PS3 as well (Tekken, DOA, Wipeout, NG). There are even a couple of Vita games that do it. I think most developers choose not to because I think they overestimate how much the average gamer is going to notice such (example being in Tekken Tag 2, the resolution can drop all the way down to 9xxX5xx, but I doubt most noticed).

Though I think we're more inclined to see them on XBO because they can use the display plane to keep the HUD at 1080p at all times so the switching of resolution is much less noticeable due to the static images remaining sharp.

You can't do it within a single frame nor do it for free as you do on X1. Further, you can't process the planes in parallel with only 1 scaler as PS4 has (for games). So no, you can't do something particularly similar on PS4. Dynamic res via software is MUCH less effective compared to X1's display planes design, hence why basically nobody uses dynamic res in modern games. Doing it entirely via software requires significant processing overhead which defeats the purpose in most games.
 
I think this is the quote that hurts mister x and puresoul more than anything

[QUOTEAndrew Goosen first confirms that both Xbox One and PS4 graphics tech is derived from the same AMD "Island" family before addressing the Microsoft console's apparent GPU deficiency in depth]
[/quote]

Nah, they are comparing die shots of the xb1 to the 9970 die and other gpus now.
 
You can't do it within a single frame nor do it for free as you do on X1. Further, you can't process the planes in parallel with only 1 scaler as PS4 has (for games). So no, you can't do something particularly similar on PS4. Dynamic res via software is MUCH less effective compared to X1's display planes design, hence why basically nobody uses dynamic res in modern games. Doing it entirely via software requires significant processing overhead which defeats the purpose in most games.

When did I say you do it the same on PS4 as XBO exactly Astro? I simply said it can be done on any platform. I at no point even argued that the PS4 could do it as well as XBO, not even sure how you inferred that, nor did I ever infer PS4 would be using a display plane to do such. And dynamic resolution scaling is always done on a frame by frame basis...that's how it works (again, see Wipeout PS3 for more information) seeing as the entire point of dynamic resolution scaling is to preserve framerate. Nick merely notes that the scaler they're using on XBO is higher quality than 360s as it allows frame by frame scaling whereas obviously the 360's was incapable of such.
 
When did I say you do it the same on PS4 as XBO exactly Astro? I simply said it can be done on any platform. I at no point even argued that the PS4 could do it as well as XBO, not even sure how you inferred that, nor did I ever infer PS4 would be using a display plane to do such. And dynamic resolution scaling is always done on a frame by frame basis...that's how it works (again, see Wipeout PS3 for more information) seeing as the entire point of dynamic resolution scaling is to preserve framerate. Nick merely notes that the scaler they're using on XBO is higher quality than 360s as it allows frame by frame scaling whereas obviously the 360's was incapable of such.

You suggested it was doable to the same degree on PC and PS4 in your opening statement in that post. I was pointing out that such a suggestion was misleading. Your very first sentence said you can do it on PS4 too. And no, dynamic res is NEVER done frame by frame. It's done over several frames if done via software. That's what makes X1's display planes different and why it was implemented in hardware and not just a box to check on the SDK. The display planes also do more than just res adjustments. They can adjust framerates and color depth too. For instance, the HUD can have its framerate culled without issue in most games without anyone noticing. You can also do more than just a HUD/game split as per the patent.
 
Pure speculation? The APU fused on the Xbox One is using an W2W (wafer 2 wafer) multi-module design that allows stacking of one chip on another. The first layer wafer is dedicated to the 28nm HPM Main SOC which was revealed during Hot Chip 2013 with 8 Jaguar cores and a modified Radeon HD 6670 GPU with DX11.1 and OpenGL 3.0 support. The layer beneath it is dedicated to the stacked discrete GPU and the final wafer layer is dedicated to the 32 MB of ESRAM.
I really hope you're kidding.
 
Pure speculation? The APU fused on the Xbox One is using an W2W (wafer 2 wafer) multi-module design that allows stacking of one chip on another. The first layer wafer is dedicated to the 28nm HPM Main SOC which was revealed during Hot Chip 2013 with 8 Jaguar cores and a modified Radeon HD 6670 GPU with DX11.1 and OpenGL 3.0 support. The layer beneath it is dedicated to the stacked discrete GPU and the final wafer layer is dedicated to the 32 MB of ESRAM.

Source? http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/ ?
 
Maybe this will clear some of the unknowns up:

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/09/20/amd-livestream-gpu14/

AMD to livestream GPU ’14 Product Showcase
A large move forward with the social media marketing for AMD
AMD yesterday announced a video livestream for their GPU 2014 Product Showcase event [Author's note: Read "'Hawaii' launch event"] at 3 p.m. EDT on September 25, to show off some of their 2014 GPU products. The livestream can be accessed on their investor relations website, and on YouTube. With the heavier focus on social media marketing inside AMD recently, coupled with this livestream, AMD seem to have high hopes that they will “make history in Q4″ and excite the gaming GPU market once more.
Gaming GPU market (January to September 2013): *Yawns*
To the gaming GPU market, the last nine months have been relatively stable (or stale, for the pessimists), without anything major to hit the PC gaming market with much excitement. NVIDIA cancelled their GK11x series GPUs (everything except the GK110) and ended up having nothing to offer during Computex 2013. While AMD only has the Radeon HD 7790, the only discrete GPU in the “Sea Islands” family, as new discrete GPU offering to fill the hole between the Cape Verde Radeon HD 7700 series and the Pitcairn Radeon HD 7800 series GPUs. The rest is about keeping the focus on Radeon HD 7000 series for retail, rebrands (Radeon HD 8000 series) on the OEM side, and updated game bundle redemption available to end users.
Things look vastly different on the gaming console side. AMD gained a clean sweep in Wii U with R700 shaders, PlayStation 4 with Sea Islands shaders, and Xbox One with Southern Islands shaders, along with Jaguar x86-64 CPU cores for the PlayStation 4 APU and Xbox One SoC, that means most of the AAA cross-platform titles will have the same starting line and a unified feature set on graphics capabilities. [Author's note: except for features enabled the eSRAM on Xbox One which some devs states it's "a pain to use the eSRAM".]
It’s also widely speculated that AMD will one-up their GCN architecture (presented in their Southern Islands and Sea Islands family GPUs) with next-gen (better known by the family codename “Volcanic Islands“) GPUs to keep the lead of graphics and compute capabilities on the PC platform.
Volcanic Islands: A new hope for AMD?
Back in June, it was discovered that there’s a lot of interesting offers from AMD as suggested in the INF files from a leaked driver, including information for “Hawaii“, “Vesuvius“, a GPU with graphics memory in a MCM (Multi-chip module) package for the embedded market and a new model numbering scheme that resembles the iSomethingMeaningless and the ASomethingMeaningless notations for Intel processors and AMD APUs.
And later, we came across this tweet
And we move forward in time to August, when AMD was sending out invitations to press, saying they will reveal their next-gen GPUs on September 25 in Hawaii, which suggest the new GPUs are being fabricated on a 28 nm process.
AMD Red Team: Let the tease begin!
As the event moves closer, on Monday September 16, they began a series teasing the next-gen GPUs.
Step one, AMD officially brought back Ruby, the secret agent previously appearing in multiple ATI GPU Demos [Author's note: The author is actually surprised that this page, dated 2009, still exists in AMD servers without any missing images.] which aims at showing Radeon GPU rendering capabilities, back to the stage after a 5-year hiatus and a brief sneak peek in GDC 2013 with GCN-based GPU and a modified CryEngine 3. It starts off with Facebook event for supporters (called the “AMD Red Team Members”) to vote for the storyline of Ruby coming back on stage, and now a dedicated twitter account.
In the meatspace though, AMD had an interview with Forbes stating they will not be targeting a $999-class enthusiast GPUs, basically “white elephants” from our perspective. And then, AMD announced live stream for the September 25 event on their official website, Facebook fan page and YouTube channel, with replay available on their YouTube channel later. And the fun part is, NVIDIA doesn’t have an answer to that.
 
Sea island is DX 11.1 +

Waiting the DX11.2+ one the VI one :D

What is 7970 ?

Valus (SIMDs)77mm ²21.1%
TMUs with L1 $ vD55mm ²15.1%
LDS, Salu, scheduler29mm ²7.9%
I $ L1, L1 sD $, logic shared by group of 4 CUs14.5 mm ²4.0%
complete shader array of 32 CUs175.5 mm ²48.1%
Pad area of memory interface62mm ²17.0%
PCIe, display, UVD, VCE, etc.45mm ²12.3%
L2, ROPs, memory controller41.5 mm ²11.4%
Frontend, Raster Engine18mm ²4.9%
Logic between Mem-pads (?)1mm ²0.3%
empty spaces (mainly edge of this)22mm ²6.0%
total R1000/Tahiti-Chip365mm ²100%

The CU it self is not that big
that before using HDL
also there is still 22mm^2 empty space
 
1423776140-funny_smiley_suicide.jpg


Still haven't given up even though Microsoft has continued to provide facts that say you are wrong.

at least be f***ing reasonable and say that the 7790 gpu might have some volcanic island upgrades or some s***. At least that is plausible like the 360 gpu being the first to have a unified shader pipeline.
 
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Still haven't given up even though Microsoft has continued to provide facts that say you are wrong.

at least be f***ing reasonable and say that the 7790 gpu might have some volcanic island upgrades or some s***. At least that is plausible like the 360 gpu being the first to have a unified shader pipeline.

Poor, poor Zom. Pure has made him inconsolably suicidal.
 
I have been a txb member since 2001. Rarely I do post ( ]EviL[ )
I have been reading on mister Site for some time now, it is interesting. Some ideas are out there, some are plausible.
It seems like when the say "cloud" they are saying local processing. But cloud I do think is the future game streaming heck even the steambox will do this my BlackBerry tablet can even do this.
played starcraft 2 on my tablet it was cool but barely playable due to lack of controls lol.

From understanding from many forums the x1 is built well that it will not bottle neck at all. Many things we don't understand yet, but what we do makes the x1 truly a beast. Due to x1 architecture it will be on par with ps4 with ease but again I do think ai and psychics may be better on x1.

Btw always found it very interesting ryse uses 150k polygons per upclose character, and killzone is 40k. Both look great though.

Time will tell. Either way gaming will be great, and also cool to know i can turn up the volume on my tv with my kinect seems dumb but truly it will be an all in one system. Btw there is also a port on the back of the system no one knows (?) what it is for.
 
Time will tell. Either way gaming will be great, and also cool to know i can turn up the volume on my tv with my kinect seems dumb but truly it will be an all in one system. Btw there is also a port on the back of the system no one knows (?) what it is for.

we know all the ports.

power supply, hdmi out, toslink, hdmi in, two usb 3.0s, Kinect port, ir blaster port, Ethernet

from the majornelson unboxing

0.jpg
 
Just to add some fuel to the fire...
When asked about it, Penello doesn't seem to deny "surprises".

hardware_surprise.jpg


And everyone knows that no denial == confirmation, right?
 
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You suggested it was doable to the same degree on PC and PS4 in your opening statement in that post. I was pointing out that such a suggestion was misleading. Your very first sentence said you can do it on PS4 too. And no, dynamic res is NEVER done frame by frame. It's done over several frames if done via software. That's what makes X1's display planes different and why it was implemented in hardware and not just a box to check on the SDK. The display planes also do more than just res adjustments. They can adjust framerates and color depth too. For instance, the HUD can have its framerate culled without issue in most games without anyone noticing. You can also do more than just a HUD/game split as per the patent.

Except the display panes aren't doing any of that....



Around 17minutes, Boyd Multerer says that the display panes are being used to do the instant switching.
 
Except the display panes aren't doing any of that....



Around 17minutes, Boyd Multerer says that the display panes are being used to do the instant switching.

display_planes1.jpg
(source: vgleaks)
The X1 does both.
There are 2 display planes in use by the title that do what Astro suggests, and a third system plane that does what you suggest.
 
Ok but wouldn't that cancel out what MS were trying to do in the first place?

And if Astro is right why haven't MS come out and said that the display panes are used to improve games? I've read quite a few technical pieces regarding the X1 and nowhere has it said that the display panes are being used in that way, only to do the instant switching. So a game is running on the XB1 and you want to watch TV so you switch it over but wait the game is consuming 2 of the display panes so it has to rebuild another display ready for the switch. Kinda defeats the object of having them anyway then....

Looking at the picture above tells me that the system level plane is being used as a controller and nothing else.
 
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Ok but wouldn't that cancel out what MS were trying to do in the first place?

And if Astro is right why haven't MS come out and said that the display panes are used to improve games? I've read quite a few technical pieces regarding the X1 and nowhere has it said that the display panes are being used in that way, only to do the instant switching. So a game is running on the XB1 and you want to watch TV so you switch it over but wait the game is consuming 2 of the display panes so it has to rebuild another display ready for the switch. Kinda defeats the object of having them anyway then....

Looking at the picture above tells me that the system level plane is being used as a controller and nothing else.

Seriously mate, let it go. Some of you guys are just eerie with how many times things need to be explained to ya. Da s*** just creeps me out at this point....
 
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Ok but wouldn't that cancel out out MS were trying to do in the first place?

And if Astro is right why haven't MS come out and said that the display panes are used to improve games? I've read quite a few technical pieces regarding the X1 and nowhere has it said that the display panes are being used in that way, only to do the instant switching. So a game is running on the XB1 and you want to watch TV so you switch it over but wait the game is consuming 2 of the display panes so it has to rebuild another display ready for the switch. Kinda defeats the object of having them anyway then....

From what I read (long time ago and i don't remember where... my fault sorry :( ) it seemed to me that they established quite early -even before the reveal- that the display planes are three different rendertargets that are composited by hardware. The first two are completely controlled by the game that's running at the moment, so they could be implementing whatever tecnique: rendering skyboxes on one and the rest of the scene on the other, or gui on one and the game on the other. The two could have independent framerates and resolutions and it would not matter, because they are resized and blended by custom dedicated hardware, that's what Astro says and that's why i think he's correct.

The difference with ps4 is that having 2 of them the X1 probably doesn't have to do additional memory ops to blend them because it's the hardware itself that does it, not a specific function written by the programmers of the game. On the X1 that blend function probably only has to give the pointers and modes to the two framebuffers to the fixed function hardware and it would just "render" on the screen the blended result (after of course transforming the blended result and blending it again to the OS plane).
On the ps4, on the other hand, the programmers would have to blend the two game (blending with OS layer is hardware based on ps4 too!) buffers together by software with a rasonably small penalty in speed (after all deferred rendering blends rendertargets together,and is a very viable solution). This is fairly trivial if the buffers are rendered in sync or every other frame, but i suppose it wouldn't be that easy if one layer targets 50fps and the other 15fps, because the fact that don't sync properly would force the dev to manually manage the odd frames to limit the artifacts (I.E. trough frame blending). That's all stuff the X1 almost surely does FAST (as Astro says probably <1 frame fast) by using specific fixed function hardware.But that's pure speculation.. without the documentation for either one i can't be sure.