so, it’s like saying when you buy a Lamborghini/Lexus/Cadillac you’re really just buying a VW/Toyota/Chevy
Ok. So it is 10% beeter than a 6tf console that does native 4K but will most likely be rendering at 1080P. So, we are back where we started and with the same answer. Lockhart shouldn't be a hinderence to next gen development.No, I factored in it being RDNA 2. 4 tflops of RDNA 2 is not much better 6 tflops of GCN. Giving RDNA 2 the benefit of the doubt and saying that the Xbox Series X can perform on par with a 2080 Ti at 14 tlfops. That would make 4 tflops of RDNA 2 4.6 tflops of Turing.
4.6 tflops would put it's performance under a GTX 1660 which is about 10% better than the Xbox One X.
You are right, I was thinking of multi-bounce global illumination and they can scale back the number of bounces to run on the lower end console.
Well, they are saying that the series S has ray tracing. You are right it's only a rumor, though. It might not have it.
If games scaled 1 to 1 like that you should be able to play all games on a 1660ti at 2k at the same settings as you do a 2080 super at 4k. Red Dead Redemption 2 certainly didn't work out like that. 1660ti has almost exactly half the tflops of a 2080 Super yet the 2080 Super can play the game at 4k at the same settings as the 1660ti at 1080p. It's a sign of what's to come.
I don't necessarily think it's a replacement for the Xbox One X. It could be a streaming platform or the focus might be on portability. This might be the next gen version of the Nintendo Switch (but without any of the games that make up for the system's short comings).
If games start getting gimped like a Switch port then that $300 price point is not going to be worth it for someone who thinks they are saving money over the PS5.
No, I factored in it being RDNA 2. 4 tflops of RDNA 2 is not much better 6 tflops of GCN. Giving RDNA 2 the benefit of the doubt and saying that the Xbox Series X can perform on par with a 2080 Ti at 14 tlfops. That would make 4 tflops of RDNA 2 4.6 tflops of Turing.
4.6 tflops would put it's performance under a GTX 1660 which is about 10% better than the Xbox One X.
You are right, I was thinking of multi-bounce global illumination and they can scale back the number of bounces to run on the lower end console.
Well, they are saying that the series S has ray tracing. You are right it's only a rumor, though. It might not have it.
If games scaled 1 to 1 like that you should be able to play all games on a 1660ti at 2k at the same settings as you do a 2080 super at 4k. Red Dead Redemption 2 certainly didn't work out like that. 1660ti has almost exactly half the tflops of a 2080 Super yet the 2080 Super can play the game at 4k at the same settings as the 1660ti at 1080p. It's a sign of what's to come.
I thought the 1660TI and the 2080 Super were 2 different Archs.
If you're comparing 2 different archs that would be where your discrepancy comes in as XSX and XSS will be on the same architecture.
No, I factored in it being RDNA 2. 4 tflops of RDNA 2 is not much better 6 tflops of GCN. Giving RDNA 2 the benefit of the doubt and saying that the Xbox Series X can perform on par with a 2080 Ti at 14 tlfops. That would make 4 tflops of RDNA 2 4.6 tflops of Turing.
4.6 tflops would put it's performance under a GTX 1660 which is about 10% better than the Xbox One X.
You are right, I was thinking of multi-bounce global illumination and they can scale back the number of bounces to run on the lower end console.
Well, they are saying that the series S has ray tracing. You are right it's only a rumor, though. It might not have it.
If games scaled 1 to 1 like that you should be able to play all games on a 1660ti at 2k at the same settings as you do a 2080 super at 4k. Red Dead Redemption 2 certainly didn't work out like that. 1660ti has almost exactly half the tflops of a 2080 Super yet the 2080 Super can play the game at 4k at the same settings as the 1660ti at 1080p. It's a sign of what's to come.
I don't necessarily think it's a replacement for the Xbox One X. It could be a streaming platform or the focus might be on portability. This might be the next gen version of the Nintendo Switch (but without any of the games that make up for the system's short comings).
If games start getting gimped like a Switch port then that $300 price point is not going to be worth it for someone who thinks they are saving money over the PS5.
You're right in that there's not exact scaling between teraflops and resolution. Wrong to assume that this handpicked scenario is the one that will represent the scaling between Series X and Lockhart. I mentioned it before. Microsoft built in monitoring tools into Xbox One. It has had a lot of impact on DX12U. It's had a lot to do with the balance of Series X. No doubt they didn't just pull the Lockhart balancing out of their asses. Resolution and ray tracing will eat a lot of GPU resources. Until there's evidence to back up that they missed the mark and therefore Lockhart is holding back next gen, it's all fear mongering at this point.
Ok. So it is 10% beeter than a 6tf console that does native 4K but will most likely be rendering at 1080P. So, we are back where we started and with the same answer. Lockhart shouldn't be a hinderence to next gen development.
Their "monitoring tools" are probably the reason why they were pushing for a native 4k/60 standard, but Ubisoft has already defied Microsoft's standard with Valhalla only running at 30fps. I wouldn't put it past Ubisoft to have the game running at 1440p native trying to push for realism like a lot of developers are talking about now.
The Lockhart sku could be fine with most games. It only takes a few bad ports to ruin the console for many people. Especially if it's Starfield, Elder Scrolls 6, or GTA6. Many people that buy those games will only buy 1 or 2 games a year. It's a nightmare to have a Nintendo Switch situation with one of those games. And those are the games most likely to perform poorly on the lowerend SKU.
That's not even taking into account the possibility of extreme performance gains from near perfect AI Upscaling.
Calling it "fear mongering" is getting way too defensive. It'll be great value as a streaming console. I figure they will do something to localize hit detection using the hardware.
Those games were built to run on a system that came out in 2013 (1.2 tflops). Even then the games are often upscaled from 2k using temporal antialiasing. You are right, it won't hinder next gen development. I hope developers would sooner cripple the game on Lockhart than to hold back the real next gen systems.
AC Valhalla is a game designed on last gen consoles, on the previous version of DX with no next gen optimization at this point. Really bad example. Lockhart gas nothing to do with it.
I didn't say Lockhart held back Valhala. I said that MS might have wanted AC Valhalla to run at 4k/60 on series x so that it scales down better to the lowerend SKU.
They aren't dictating anything to 3rd parties. Again you're hypothetical scenarios are possible yet highly unrealistic. Resolution and ray tracing help sell copies of games to people who buy the higher end console. Resolution and ray tracing are easy wins for developers. A sure fire way to lose sales is offer your game at 1440P/30 with no ray tracing because you're trying to add more geometry to a game. Other potential uses for GPUs, like a neural net, are hard to sell to enthusiast and can be offloaded to the cloud if a dev really wants to get innovative.
There's a reason most devs either don't have Lockhart or only started to get them recently. Microsoft wanted devs to target Series X and scale down. Assuming Lockhart doesn't get canceled, you'll hear more about that when NDAs are up in August.
No that Unreal Engine Tech demo was INCREDIBLE and it ran at 1440p/30. It did not use the PS5s ray tracing hardware at all. That will be a game changer if games look like that with next gen.
"Neural Net"? You mean the AI Upscaling? DLSS 2.0 definitely wasn't hard to sell to enthusiasts. They can see the benefit of having AI upscaling almost identical to 4k, but with much better game fidelity. It's the old checkerboard rendering that people don't like.
AI upscaling is just as appealing as the other DX12Ultimate features.
Yeah, I realize now it's far more likely than the Lockhart version of the game gets gimped than for the Series X version to be held back. Especially considering that the PS5 is most likely to be the lead platform.
With the Series X being the lead platform I guess I don’t see the problem with scaling down? Why can’t they scale down to the Lockhart, PS5, PS4, X1X, XSX?
MS said the develop games from the top down, so all developers should be able to.
Or am I wrong and MS is wrong?
4 tflops is very low even for RDNA 2. At best you are talking about GTX 1660 level raw performance. That's not that much better than the RX 580 (6 tflops) performance you get from the Xbox One X.
Also keep in mind that the lower end model was the lead platform that the game was built around and they only increased texture resolution. Now they would be scaling the games down with the PS5 being the lead platform.
They've already cancelled the current gen version of Resident Evil 8.
Developers wanted to get away from baked lighting to reduce development costs. You can't do global illumination at all with Series S and the ray tracing performance with just 20 CUs won't be good enough either. People were claiming ray tracing performance with the PS5 wouldn't be that good because it "only" had 36 CUs.
I guess it won't hold back development if they are willing to scale games down as low as 720p.
4TF is just a number...a theoretical number based on one data point. The architecture and tools are far more important.
Where disd you get that XSS couldn't do global illumination? It can.
The 36cus in PS5 can do ray tracing just fine. But comparatively speaking the XSX will do it better because of the RT cores. Something we don't know if XSS will still have or not.
It might scale just fine. After dealing with the PC version of Red Dead 2 I just don't believe that next gen games will scale 1-to-1 like they are claiming. His argument was that Red Dead Redemption 2 was such an anomaly that you can't use it as an example but it was only unique because it was advanced for this current generation. With the next generation there will be more games with advanced engines that don't scale well on lower end hardware.
With Starfield Todd Howard is still trying to get vehicles to run on a modified Fallout 4 engine. That game's optimization on the lowerend Lockhart could be a complete mess.
It might scale just fine. After dealing with the PC version of Red Dead 2 I just don't believe that next gen games will scale 1-to-1 like they are claiming. His argument was that Red Dead Redemption 2 was such an anomaly that you can't use it as an example but it was only unique because it was advanced for this current generation. With the next generation there will be more games with advanced engines that don't scale well on lower end hardware.
With Starfield Todd Howard is still trying to get vehicles to run on a modified Fallout 4 engine. That game's optimization on the lowerend Lockhart could be a complete mess.
Where did you to come up with your opinion?It will hinder next gen development unless low to super low resolutions are the target.
Where did you see XSS specs and capabilities?
Well, its optimization will be mess on all platforms. It is Todd with a Fallout engine afterall.It might scale just fine. After dealing with the PC version of Red Dead 2 I just don't believe that next gen games will scale 1-to-1 like they are claiming. His argument was that Red Dead Redemption 2 was such an anomaly that you can't use it as an example but it was only unique because it was advanced for this current generation. With the next generation there will be more games with advanced engines that don't scale well on lower end hardware.
With Starfield Todd Howard is still trying to get vehicles to run on a modified Fallout 4 engine. That game's optimization on the lowerend Lockhart could be a complete mess.
Lowest denominator always has to be taken into consideration.Where did you to come up with your opinion?
And you determined it will hold back development how exactly?Lowest denominator always has to be taken into consideration.
Not if the target is the highest common denominator.Lowest denominator always has to be taken into consideration.
I picture Val:Nice to see Val graced this thread with his bulls***. Never change.
Swede you should recommend him some breathing exercises. The plastic war is serious business how dare you make a joke!
Xbox Series S will be 'perfect' for next-gen games, says former Sony engineer
The Xbox Series S will be just fine with 20CUs, according to a console hardware veteranwww.tomsguide.com
Not if the target is the highest common denominator.
Irrelevant if lockhart hinders development, though.Not if the target is the highest common denominator.