Official Thread LEGENDARY Series X and PS5 discussion with MOAR Jackie Chan!!

The Living Tribunal

Omnipotent
Super Mod
Forum Mod
Sep 14, 2013
4,981
2,299
3,430
34
The spaces between realities!
So to minimize the antagonizing posts that are popping up in each thread we are going to have a thread discussing the strengths and weaknesses of both the PS5 and XSX relative to each other.

Couple of ground rules: No outright flaming or trolling.

Posting humourous or funny gifs are allowed.

Be courteous and respectful of others opinions.

Thread Banner:



Thank you.
 
Last edited:

DriedMangoes

Stalking in the night
Sep 12, 2013
8,404
1,493
2,930

"I'm getting texts and DMs from developers being like, this is such a shame, the PS5 is so superior in all these other ways that they're not actually able to message right now, or can't talk about right now. I heard from at least three different people, since the Cerny thing, that the PS5 is actually the superior piece of hardware in a lot of different ways despite what we're seeing in these spec sheets."

We'll see how true this is once DF gets a hold on both consoles.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Two Pennys Worth

GordoSan

Well-Known Member
Cornerstone Member
Sep 14, 2013
2,717
1,186
12,130

"I'm getting texts and DMs from developers being like, this is such a shame, the PS5 is so superior in all these other ways that they're not actually able to message right now, or can't talk about right now. I heard from at least three different people, since the Cerny thing, that the PS5 is actually the superior piece of hardware in a lot of different ways despite what we're seeing in these spec sheets."

We'll see how true this is once DF gets a hold on both consoles.
I really don't want to get into fan-bait wars, but is it possible that the devs are just going by whatever is in the dev kits? I don't know why Sony would wait so long to only release some of the specs. That just makes little sense, since Xbox is pretty much out in the open. What reason would they possibly have to keep secrets now?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mcmasters

Mcmasters

Say my name...
Sep 11, 2013
9,502
1,930
2,720
SEATTLE
www.inkjrop.com
Not for nothing but its all rather shocking. If Sony would've had the highest TF count, the narrative would absolutely, positively be about TF counts. But since its kinda the inferior system compared to the competition, the goal posts get moved to the SSD. Just an observation.

And you can bet your bottom dollar the Series X will see similar performance on its SSD tech but, people seem to be hyping Sonys SSD to the point where the Series X almost has an HDD. This s*** is crazy as right now.
 

SpartanDawgX1

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2014
981
207
294
PS5 is only superior in one area which is the SSD which is admittedly interesting. Schreier also reported the PS5 as more powerful so I’m curious as to all of theses unnamed hardware features the console is superior to the XSX in. Since the console and specs have been revealed hiding behind a podcast with this info without specifics is interesting. Sounds like console hype talk....which is fine and expected instead of actual facts.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hedon

OneBadMutha

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,846
1,347
2,110
PS5 is only superior in one area which is the SSD which is admittedly interesting. Schreier also reported the PS5 as more powerful so I’m curious as to all of theses unnamed hardware features the console is superior to the XSX in. Since the console and specs have been revealed hiding behind a podcast with this info without specifics is interesting. Sounds like console hype talk....which is fine and expected instead of actual facts.
Schreier isn't a hardware guy. He does talk to devs. I don't know how any dev can make that claim definitively without having time with both pieces of hardware and their fully operational tool-sets.

What I think is happening is devs are very happy with the PS5 and the messaging is being distorted by fanboys. Schreier never said the PS5 was more powerful. He said devs who are working with PS5 were calling the hardware the most innovative and that Cerny blew the messaging. Killing IO bottlenecks is real. Saving time and ease of development are more important than max theoretical power if the consoles are in the same ballpark when a single developer has a job to do. Series X is supposed to do something similar however doesn't have it's tools ready so I'd be raising an eyebrow if Microsoft devs were saying the same thing without being able to test it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dno69

SpartanDawgX1

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2014
981
207
294
Microsoft makes the software tools behind many of these games and the XSX is basically a PC. Yet, we are to believe Sony’s superior expertise in software and variable rate architecture in the hardware= a easier platform to develop for? I don’t buy that. It might be easy but who knows what actual spec developers can target seeing as that is a variable they have to consider.
 

VaLLiancE

SLAYER
Sep 11, 2013
26,692
3,956
4,031
The Delaware Valley
Microsoft makes the software tools behind many of these games and the XSX is basically a PC. Yet, we are to believe Sony’s superior expertise in software and variable rate architecture in the hardware= a easier platform to develop for? I don’t buy that. It might be easy but who knows what actual spec developers can target seeing as that is a variable they have to consider.
We heard this same talk this gen and see where it got us.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: MR X

Rollins

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2013
9,933
9,851
3,280


The Xbox Series X will be the go-to console for HDR gaming - here’s why
By Adam Vjestica
First Published 1 day ago
Opinion: Xbox Series X is betting big on HDR
(Image credit: Microsoft)
If you’re a fan of HDR gaming (and why wouldn’t you be?), the Xbox Series X is shaping up to be the console of choice for those who love the beauty of high dynamic range.

Microsoft’s diminutive tower of power already has gamers salivating over its impressive technical specifications, but the company is ensuring that when you hook an Xbox Series X up to a HDR-compatible display, you’ll be in for a visual (and nostalgic) treat.

Unlike PlayStation 4, the Xbox One Xalready supports both HDR10 and Dolby Vision, which is noticeably missing from Sony’s platform. Dolby Vision is Netflix’s HDR standard of choice and has also been adopted by a growing library of 4K UHD Blu-Ray. It’s safe to assume, then, that Xbox Series X will retain these features.

What’s more, Sony is doubling down on priority tech for PS5, like its Tempest 3D audio instead of Dolby Atmos. Microsoft, meanwhile, created their own spatial audio tech for Xbox One - Windows Sonic - but also lets users choose Dolby Atmos, if they prefer.

While we can confidently predict Sony won’t be introducing a new display technology anytime soon (fingers crossed), it’s refreshing to see that Microsoft is continuing to invest in more widely available standards, such as HDR.

But what about the Xbox's wide, catalogue of backwards-compatibility treats? No one could have guessed that Microsoft would figure out a way to retroactively add HDR to older games, though. But that’s exactly what it’s managed to do, so now your classics will be HDR too.

What’s HDR to me?
(Image credit: Samsung)
HDR, or High Dynamic Range, is a relatively new TV standard that lets you experience accurate colors, greatly improved contrast and more vivid pictures than what was previously possible with standard dynamic range televisions (SDR). That means you’ll see brighter whites when viewing a snowy mountain top, deeper blacks during darker scenes and a greater spectrum of colors overall. Colors won’t appear crushed or oversaturated, either, meaning you’ll often be able to see more nuanced details that were previously hidden.

HDR is a huge boon for video games in particular, as they often use exaggerated color palettes and feature explosive set pieces that take full advantage of HDR’s capabilities. SDR content can look rather muted and flat in comparison, lacking the vibrancy and clarity that only HDR can provide.

Imagine, then, if the Xbox Series X could inject a fresh lick of HDR paint to all the games you played years ago. But how would that work exactly?

Old dog, new HDR tricks
During Digital Foundry’s visit to Microsoft’s HQ in Redmond, Washington, the team was shown the Xbox One X enhanced version of Halo 5: Guardians, running with a very convincing HDR implementation. Even though developer 343 Industries never shipped the game to include HDR support originally, Microsoft has found an ingenious way to add HDR into the game – developed from the state-of-the-art HDR implementation used in Gears 5.

Microsoft ATG principal software engineer Claude Marais revealed that, by using a machine learning algorithm, the team was able to generate a full HDR image from SDR content – on any backwards compatible title.

And when Microsoft says any backwards compatible title can receive the HDR treatment – it means any title. The Digital Foundry team was stunned to see Fusion Frenzy – an original Xbox game that was released almost 20 years ago – running with real HDR.

Microsoft’s new HDR-mapping tech will extend across the entire Xbox library on Xbox Series X, and apply to the hundreds of compatible games that don’t have their own bespoke HDR modes already.

Some TV displays will ship with baked-in HDR-effect or HDR boost options – which aren’t actually HDR proper. But Microsoft’s technology creates exact heatmaps (instructions for the brightness settings) for the auto HDR tech to work from, ensuring the picture looks just as it should.

Retro makeover
Seeing classic Xbox titles get the HDR treatment for Xbox Series X is an enticing prospect, then, but Microsoft also has some other interesting ideas where its machine learning algorithm can be used, particularly when it comes to accessibility.

“If you have people that cannot read well or see well, you probably want to enhance contrast when there's a lot of text on-screen. We can easily do that,” Marias explained to Digital Foundry. “We talked to someone that's colorblind this morning and that's a great example. We just switch on the LUT and we can change colours for them to more easily experience the announcement there."

There’s no denying that Xbox Series X is a technically accomplished piece of technology, but Microsoft has ensured that its new console will make the most of the innovations available today, to help bring new life to the treasured games of the past.

 
  • Like
Reactions: VaLLiancE and Hedon

OneBadMutha

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,846
1,347
2,110
We heard this same talk this gen and see where it got us.
It got us some cool efficiencies with the Xbox One X. Things like automatic upgrades to old games with no developer work and the existence of backwards compatibility in of itself are big examples of results. Since early 2018 when Nadella opened up the coffers, Microsoft has been stockpiling people not only in studios but in centralized teams that specialize in areas that can support all the studios. Since Microsoft re-committed to gaming, they've invested heavily in Game Stack and improving DX12.

It doesn't guarantee results but if you're an odds-maker, chances of results have gone up exponentially for this next cycle. I think it's ok to be optimistic here. It's disappointing that they're behind Sony in terms of having some basic tools ready for next gen development but that's likely a result needing their stuff to work across all PC configurations where as Sony is only targeting 1 hardware configuration.
 

Mcmasters

Say my name...
Sep 11, 2013
9,502
1,930
2,720
SEATTLE
www.inkjrop.com
Microsoft makes the software tools behind many of these games and the XSX is basically a PC. Yet, we are to believe Sony’s superior expertise in software and variable rate architecture in the hardware= a easier platform to develop for? I don’t buy that. It might be easy but who knows what actual spec developers can target seeing as that is a variable they have to consider.
Maybe you can help me out here. Certainly the console wars have begun. On paper, the Series X is the most powerful. That's a given. But I see some who are touting Sonys SSD. Where my confusion comes in is, is all the mental gymnastics over SSD an attempt at trying to close the power delta between the two consoles? Or the battlefield hinges on the best SSD's now since the PS5 is the weaker of the two in power? I'm genuinely confused.
 

OneBadMutha

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,846
1,347
2,110
Maybe you can help me out here. Certainly the console wars have begun. On paper, the Series X is the most powerful. That's a given. But I see some who are touting Sonys SSD. Where my confusion comes in is, is all the mental gymnastics over SSD an attempt at trying to close the power delta between the two consoles? Or the battlefield hinges on the best SSD's now since the PS5 is the weaker of the two in power? I'm genuinely confused.
Only Youtube fake tech insiders have said PS5 is more powerful. Absolutely no point in addressing them directly. Some devs have expressed open praise towards Cerny and the innovation of the PS5. They've called it the most innovative console in 20 years. That's quite different from most powerful. The SSD I/O speeds of the PS5 save CPU and memory power, remove bottle-necks and make life easier and more efficient for devs. The Xbox Series X likely does something similar with the primary difference being that whatever Series X does, PC's will also be able to do with faster SSDs and Navi 2 GPUs. Microsoft has no desire to make something eccentric that can't be leveraged by 3rd parties on PC. Sony is touting their method exclusive to one hardware configuration in the world...the PS5.

The SSD I/O speeds can save CPU and memory resources depending on game and situation. It'll definitely cut loading. There's always a sweet spot and removing one bottle-neck introduces another. Series X SSD is slower than the PS5's...but exponentially faster than anything this gen and likely fast enough to pull off the same thing when talking about instantaneous loads of content textures without hitting CPU or memory power. There's a limit to the benefit because it doesn't actually make the rest of the components stronger directly. The I/O speeds are not multipliers on the CPU and GPU. Instead it saves those other components resources. Eventually there's only so much you can save and then you need your GPU to draw everything. So the only way the PS5 SSD overcomes the rest of the power gap is if the Xbox Series X doesn't have a similar resource saving solution...which it does...so the PS5 likely won't.

All that said, the PS5 is a great piece of hardware and I'd be excited about it too. They are in the same ballpark overall. All these spec talk differences are over-blown. The main lifts we'll get from the specs from this gen to the next are in both machines.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Mcmasters

hrudey

Purveyor and appraiser of bovine excrement
Sep 11, 2013
5,937
2,354
2,630
It got us some cool efficiencies with the Xbox One X. Things like automatic upgrades to old games with no developer work and the existence of backwards compatibility in of itself are big examples of results.
I think that when we look back on next generation when PS6 and XBox stupid name come out, MS' investments in and success with BC will be huge for a different reason than most think.

Why I think that is that, for whatever reason, Sony felt like they had to promise BC this gen, and their architecture reflects that. Sony makes great hardware, but they're also limited by that hardware reliance - because just like with pro, They need their hardware to handle back compat directly. That's almost certainly why they went with 36 CUs, to remain compatible with the Pro's 36, and the work they did to make it work with the 18 in PS4.

So once that decision was made, they had to focus on insanely high clocks to get above 10TFs (sometimes), and accept that their RT solution would be hampered by having fewer RT cores available. So going with high clocks means extra need for cooling and that's probably why they had to go with variable clocks, because if they could have locked them and gotten to ten tf they certainly would have.

Now, knowing that they were stuck on the rt/GPU front, and because any increased CPU power would necessarily reduce available GPU headroom, they had to focus on other differentiating factors... Ones that wouldn't affect CPU or GPU power needs. Thus the audio and SSD design. The audio design could be ridiculously awesome - it gives the ability to do unimaginable customizations. The SSD is different - it'll be unrivaled in load times, great at handling any major reads from disk, but these systems have enough memory that major loads should be infrequent.

Sony has great developers, and their machine will let them make some amazing games. No third party game will look better on PS5, though, or run better, and they'll be way behind on anything involving ray tracing.
 

OneBadMutha

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,846
1,347
2,110
I think that when we look back on next generation when PS6 and XBox stupid name come out, MS' investments in and success with BC will be huge for a different reason than most think.

Why I think that is that, for whatever reason, Sony felt like they had to promise BC this gen, and their architecture reflects that. Sony makes great hardware, but they're also limited by that hardware reliance - because just like with pro, They need their hardware to handle back compat directly. That's almost certainly why they went with 36 CUs, to remain compatible with the Pro's 36, and the work they did to make it work with the 18 in PS4.

So once that decision was made, they had to focus on insanely high clocks to get above 10TFs (sometimes), and accept that their RT solution would be hampered by having fewer RT cores available. So going with high clocks means extra need for cooling and that's probably why they had to go with variable clocks, because if they could have locked them and gotten to ten tf they certainly would have.

Now, knowing that they were stuck on the rt/GPU front, and because any increased CPU power would necessarily reduce available GPU headroom, they had to focus on other differentiating factors... Ones that wouldn't affect CPU or GPU power needs. Thus the audio and SSD design. The audio design could be ridiculously awesome - it gives the ability to do unimaginable customizations. The SSD is different - it'll be unrivaled in load times, great at handling any major reads from disk, but these systems have enough memory that major loads should be infrequent.

Sony has great developers, and their machine will let them make some amazing games. No third party game will look better on PS5, though, or run better, and they'll be way behind on anything involving ray tracing.
Actually a great point. Microsoft's BC team may have been the #1 most important aspect of their hardware strategy. A hardware reliant backwards compatibility solution is far more limiting from a GPU standpoint. The reason for some of the hardware "innovations" was to offset some of their limitations in terms of CU count. Variable frequencies and super high frequencies aren't ideal. I'm still not convinced the yields will be good for awhile and I'm definitely buying insurance for my PS5.
 

Frozpot

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2013
11,733
3,551
3,629
My take is that there are a lot of interesting new technologies both consoles are throwing down.

Both have dedicated 3d audio sound hardware.

Both have mesh shaders (Sony calls theirs the Geometry Engine).

Both have super fast SSDs- Sony's is super-duper fast.

Both do RT (though Cerny's address seemed really simple given the depth he gave the SSD and Audio)

No word on if Sony has a VRS equivalent, but I suspect they do.

Both have mentioned specialized compression techniques.

We don't know how much RAM Sony is dedicating to its OS (some rumors are saying they could be running it off the SSD, but that would eat a lot of capability, and I don't think those are built for those types of operations and could shorten the drives lifecyle), but it's got less bandwidth.

SeX's GPU runs faster and consistently and there are like, 18 more CUs. And frequencies of either mode are higher.

Heat is a concern on the PS5 because they are overclocking the CPU to apparently crazy degree.

The PS5's CPU and gpu operate at variable frequencies and power is constant but the two can't both run at boost (peak) frequencies at the same time? Or is it just not prolonged?

The SSD thing is a big question mark for me, as loading will be reduced. I thought it was silly to talk about all the open world stuff (and how so many games are tight corridors because of slow drives) as if we haven't been playing in large open worlds before.

Hell, on this gen alone we've had huge, dense open worlds. There is some manipulation going on there to prop up the importance of it, imo. I'm sure it will be important, but even the "slow" SeX SSD is 40x faster than this gen.

I don't know. Gonna have to wait but Sonys devs are hoping to make crazy stuff with or without that crazy SSD.

BC is perfect on SeX, and I get to have free upgrades to my games from the first day (algorithmic or more deliberate like Gears). Sony Dropped the ball from what im seeing, and not getting to bring over your existing library right off is really disappointing. Hopefully they are building these last PS4 games with that in mind.

Bottom line both will be good, with some interesting strengths.

I miss as anything?
 

OneBadMutha

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2013
2,846
1,347
2,110
My take is that there are a lot of interesting new technologies both consoles are throwing down.

Both have dedicated 3d audio sound hardware.

Both have mesh shaders (Sony calls theirs the Geometry Engine).

Both have super fast SSDs- Sony's is super-duper fast.

Both do RT (though Cerny's address seemed really simple given the depth he gave the SSD and Audio)

No word on if Sony has a VRS equivalent, but I suspect they do.

Both have mentioned specialized compression techniques.

We don't know how much RAM Sony is dedicating to its OS (some rumors are saying they could be running it off the SSD, but that would eat a lot of capability, and I don't think those are built for those types of operations and could shorten the drives lifecyle), but it's got less bandwidth.

SeX's GPU runs faster and consistently and there are like, 18 more CUs. And frequencies of either mode are higher.

Heat is a concern on the PS5 because they are overclocking the CPU to apparently crazy degree.

The PS5's CPU and gpu operate at variable frequencies and power is constant but the two can't both run at boost (peak) frequencies at the same time? Or is it just not prolonged?

The SSD thing is a big question mark for me, as loading will be reduced. I thought it was silly to talk about all the open world stuff (and how so many games are tight corridors because of slow drives) as if we haven't been playing in large open worlds before.

Hell, on this gen alone we've had huge, dense open worlds. There is some manipulation going on there to prop up the importance of it, imo. I'm sure it will be important, but even the "slow" SeX SSD is 40x faster than this gen.

I don't know. Gonna have to wait but Sonys devs are hoping to make crazy stuff with or without that crazy SSD.

BC is perfect on SeX, and I get to have free upgrades to my games from the first day (algorithmic or more deliberate like Gears). Sony Dropped the ball from what im seeing, and not getting to bring over your existing library right off is really disappointing. Hopefully they are building these last PS4 games with that in mind.

Bottom line both will be good, with some interesting strengths.

I miss as anything?
I don't think so. I think you hit all the points. lol

I don't think the average gamer will be able to tell that Sony devs no longer have to hide asset loading. It might shorten the dev cycles for open world games and that would be a great thing for their output.

After generations of falling for this ish at launch, I've now come to realize that the best games and the games that best demonstrate new possibilities in tech don't usually match. Most of this generations games were simply prettier versions of last generations games.
 

JinCA

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2013
15,394
6,958
3,830
My take is that there are a lot of interesting new technologies both consoles are throwing down.

Both have dedicated 3d audio sound hardware.

Both have mesh shaders (Sony calls theirs the Geometry Engine).

Both have super fast SSDs- Sony's is super-duper fast.

Both do RT (though Cerny's address seemed really simple given the depth he gave the SSD and Audio)

No word on if Sony has a VRS equivalent, but I suspect they do.

Both have mentioned specialized compression techniques.

We don't know how much RAM Sony is dedicating to its OS (some rumors are saying they could be running it off the SSD, but that would eat a lot of capability, and I don't think those are built for those types of operations and could shorten the drives lifecyle), but it's got less bandwidth.

SeX's GPU runs faster and consistently and there are like, 18 more CUs. And frequencies of either mode are higher.

Heat is a concern on the PS5 because they are overclocking the CPU to apparently crazy degree.

The PS5's CPU and gpu operate at variable frequencies and power is constant but the two can't both run at boost (peak) frequencies at the same time? Or is it just not prolonged?

The SSD thing is a big question mark for me, as loading will be reduced. I thought it was silly to talk about all the open world stuff (and how so many games are tight corridors because of slow drives) as if we haven't been playing in large open worlds before.

Hell, on this gen alone we've had huge, dense open worlds. There is some manipulation going on there to prop up the importance of it, imo. I'm sure it will be important, but even the "slow" SeX SSD is 40x faster than this gen.

I don't know. Gonna have to wait but Sonys devs are hoping to make crazy stuff with or without that crazy SSD.

BC is perfect on SeX, and I get to have free upgrades to my games from the first day (algorithmic or more deliberate like Gears). Sony Dropped the ball from what im seeing, and not getting to bring over your existing library right off is really disappointing. Hopefully they are building these last PS4 games with that in mind.

Bottom line both will be good, with some interesting strengths.

I miss as anything?
The PS5 heating shouldn't be a problem because the console is designed not to draw more than a certain amount of power so they already know how hot it can run, their cooling solution is designed around that.

Xbox twitter yesterday said they are testing BC games as well and sony sort of clarified what they were talking about and it seems to be that PS4 games should work but for them to get a benefit from faster PS5 performance they need to be tested first to make sure there aren't any problems.

PS5's GPU runs faster but the XSX has 16 more CU's.
 

JinCA

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2013
15,394
6,958
3,830
A couple of tweets from someone who was a principal software engineer for PS5.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dno69

Frozpot

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2013
11,733
3,551
3,629
A couple of tweets from someone who was a principal software engineer for PS5.
I'm pretty sure that is what the mesh shaders are for. I'm sure both companies are supplying remedies for the same problems.

People really want to believe that the compute gap doesn't exist.

Another thing to note on the audio tech Cerney was talking about- it's still in development and he said more than once that it would still be for several years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OneBadMutha