Series X and PS5 discussion. Of TFlops and SSDs

eVo7

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That's cuz Ubisux....

To be fair the Anvil Next 2.0 engine that Ghost Recon Wildlands, Breakpoint and all of the newer AC games runs on is very dated. None of those games visuals warrant the kind of performance we are seeing on PC and consoles alike.
 
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VaLLiancE

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“Everyone is touting the SSD as the next big thing, and yes SSDs will help a lot with loading and moving assets, but the biggest culprit that is creating problems in the current generation is the CPU,” Peklar explained to us. “That’s where the biggest difference compared to current generation will come from.”
 

GordoSan

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Dat audio
I believed this guy until it got to the end. I know my way around audio enough to know that there is no reason to virtually recreate the ear (and head) shape for audio unless you are using headphones. Otherwise, it's redundant, so long as you still have ears and a head. This is 100% for personalized binaural audio recreation. You cannot map your ears to a dedicated stereo or surround sound receiver and speakers or TV, nor should you. Creative (the company) has a new chip that does this, and goes between the headphones and the source, and they also have an app that scans your ears. I wonder if they license this tech from them... I've read that the results are extremely convincing, though. This will be AMAZING for PSVR2, actually! It's just that this guy makes it sound like he knows all of the answers, and he left that very vital part out. Others have also mentioned that he was wrong about Xbox not having a dedicated audio processor, which I was pretty sure of, too. Now I have to question this guy's judgement on some of the other things, as well. He's not bad to listen to, though. I wonder if he'll admit he was wrong.

Honestly, I haven't watched a lot of YouTube vids on these consoles because so many seem to not have a complete grasp on both consoles yet. Seems like a bunch of half-truths everywhere.
 
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OneBadMutha

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Keighley, Schrier and Sweeny have been doubling down past few days that the PS5 is the true next gen hardware due to the SSD...but we're not getting context. Only good things have been said about BC Pack combined with the SSD on Xbox Series X for streaming assets. It mirrors the environment of PC so 3rd party devs can leverage it. Most high end PC gamers also have SSDs.

We never learned the throughput required for the UE5 demo. What's the sweet spot before there's not enough power to draw the geometry? In the end, balance always matters. Unless throughput is still somewhat of a bottleneck relative to the CPU, GPU and memory, then balance still matters. We need a lot more info before some of the conclusions that have been publicly made...should be made.
 
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VaLLiancE

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High end PC games will be.
They won't at least at the speed of these consoles(especially PS5) cause that market is to small.(very small if we go by nvme/PCI E 4.0)
PC games have to run on all types of configurations and that's a huge weakness compared to these consoles.


 

OneBadMutha

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They won't at least at the speed of these consoles(especially PS5) cause that market is to small.(very small if we go by nvme/PCI E 4.0)
PC games have to run on all types of configurations and that's a huge weakness compared to these consoles.


You could be right....but I'm not buying that hype yet. Devs keep reiterating it's all about balance. If SSD throughput overshoots what the GPU can draw, (the overage) is not going to gain you much. SSD throughput matters. It's ability to cache matters. But even SSD's below Xbox Series X speeds paired with Velocity (which optimizes the SSD's ability to cache a lot of data to be immediately available) is tech leagues beyond anything devs have been restricted to so far. I think we need to wait for a lot more info and real games to understand where the bottlenecks and diminishing returns are. The PS5 theoretically will have better LOD and lack of pop in compared to other hardware when you move through an environment fast...if the amount of data is more substantial than what can be stored in cache and it's GPU is capable of drawing all the geometry. Still need a lot more info and real games with real gameplay to understand how well these machines are balanced. I'm going to also assume that SSD speeds will become part of PC requirements as 3rd parties turn over their development to target the next gen consoles. AAA PC gaming has never been afraid and pushing consumers to buy new hardware. It's just never had to consider SSD throughput before.
 
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karmakid

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They won't at least at the speed of these consoles(especially PS5) cause that market is to small.(very small if we go by nvme/PCI E 4.0)
PC games have to run on all types of configurations and that's a huge weakness compared to these consoles.


true, and the even with SSDs that are as fast as ps5 it’ll still be bogged down by other resources that come with a pc
 

eVo7

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true, and the even with SSDs that are as fast as ps5 it’ll still be bogged down by other resources that come with a pc
It'll be interesting to see how the low clocked Zen 2 on the PS5 will be able to keep up with decompressing those assets at that high of a supposed speed.
 

Shawn Jelsic

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Dat audio
This is interesting....

After looking at this:

.....I'm now starting to wonder if the bottleneck in that SSD is going to be as bad as he says it will be, because if it is, that's going to be pretty major if the SSD is going to be playing that much of a role.
 

Hedon

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You could be right....but I'm not buying that hype yet. Devs keep reiterating it's all about balance. If SSD throughput overshoots what the GPU can draw, (the overage) is not going to gain you much. SSD throughput matters. It's ability to cache matters. But even SSD's below Xbox Series X speeds paired with Velocity (which optimizes the SSD's ability to cache a lot of data to be immediately available) is tech leagues beyond anything devs have been restricted to so far. I think we need to wait for a lot more info and real games to understand where the bottlenecks and diminishing returns are. The PS5 theoretically will have better LOD and lack of pop in compared to other hardware when you move through an environment fast...if the amount of data is more substantial than what can be stored in cache and it's GPU is capable of drawing all the geometry. Still need a lot more info and real games with real gameplay to understand how well these machines are balanced. I'm going to also assume that SSD speeds will become part of PC requirements as 3rd parties turn over their development to target the next gen consoles. AAA PC gaming has never been afraid and pushing consumers to buy new hardware. It's just never had to consider SSD throughput before.
 
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OneBadMutha

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I mentioned that stuff here right after the NXGamer video because Velocity architecture was a prominent selling point in the Xbox Series X DF reveal. I didnt understand why YouTube comparisons not named DF were downplaying its stated advantage of saving CPU and memory usage while touting the PS5 ability to do the same thing with brute force IO speeds. In the end, we'll have to see it in action to understand if there's any advantages or limitations. PCs will be able to use Velocity (or similar APIs) with SSDs as well. Its a different approach to accomplish similar goals. Since I don't what what the advantages or limitations of 100GB of assets vs constant higher IO streaming speeds are, I'm making no predictions. Actual devs I've watched debate on Discord have difficerent guesses based on what they know. Until devs are knee deep in the tech and tools, we're not going to know the overlap or differences between marketing hype and reality.

It does sound like the feedback is way better for DX12U than previous DX12 though.
 
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Frozpot

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I believed this guy until it got to the end. I know my way around audio enough to know that there is no reason to virtually recreate the ear (and head) shape for audio unless you are using headphones. Otherwise, it's redundant, so long as you still have ears and a head. This is 100% for personalized binaural audio recreation. You cannot map your ears to a dedicated stereo or surround sound receiver and speakers or TV, nor should you. Creative (the company) has a new chip that does this, and goes between the headphones and the source, and they also have an app that scans your ears. I wonder if they license this tech from them... I've read that the results are extremely convincing, though. This will be AMAZING for PSVR2, actually! It's just that this guy makes it sound like he knows all of the answers, and he left that very vital part out. Others have also mentioned that he was wrong about Xbox not having a dedicated audio processor, which I was pretty sure of, too. Now I have to question this guy's judgement on some of the other things, as well. He's not bad to listen to, though. I wonder if he'll admit he was wrong.

Honestly, I haven't watched a lot of YouTube vids on these consoles because so many seem to not have a complete grasp on both consoles yet. Seems like a bunch of half-truths everywhere.
Nice to see someone else agree with me, lol. Especially the HRTF stuff. I dont know how they can make it work without headphones, tbh, because the sound is already doing its bounces before it reaches your ear. Too much loss of environmental control to be effective. I watched some GDC talks about it from last year. The Q and A with other audio researchers was just as interesting.
 

GordoSan

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Nice to see someone else agree with me, lol. Especially the HRTF stuff. I dont know how they can make it work without headphones, tbh, because the sound is already doing its bounces before it reaches your ear. Too much loss of environmental control to be effective. I watched some GDC talks about it from last year. The Q and A with other audio researchers was just as interesting.
Here's a link to the thing I mentioned from Creative that was released last year, called Super X-Fi. It just seems WAY too similar, and needed a chip because it was supposedly too complicated for most basic hardware to do in software. Sound familiar? Look at the ear mapping software. I feel like this peopably has to be the same technology, if it is patented by Creative. I haven't checked on the patent holder, though. The thing is, I'm not exactly blaming Sony for being deceptive, but if they don't clarify that this is for headphones soon, it's really going to come back to bite them when people find out that this has nothing to do with regular stereo/multichannel audio output. Honestly, it kind of reeks of the whole PS3 having dual 1080p output capability BS, to me.

Before anyone thinks I'm being harsh on Sony, I am actually planning on getting the PS5 more for PSVR2 than anything else, and I'm probably more excited for this tech than just about anyone. I just don't think it is exactly what people are perceiving it to be, and the messaging from Sony is really confusing people.
 

Frozpot

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Here's a link to the thing I mentioned from Creative that was released last year, called Super X-Fi. It just seems WAY too similar, and needed a chip because it was supposedly too complicated for most basic hardware to do in software. Sound familiar? Look at the ear mapping software. I feel like this peopably has to be the same technology, if it is patented by Creative. I haven't checked on the patent holder, though. The thing is, I'm not exactly blaming Sony for being deceptive, but if they don't clarify that this is for headphones soon, it's really going to come back to bite them when people find out that this has nothing to do with regular stereo/multichannel audio output. Honestly, it kind of reeks of the whole PS3 having dual 1080p output capability BS, to me.

Before anyone thinks I'm being harsh on Sony, I am actually planning on getting the PS5 more for PSVR2 than anything else, and I'm probably more excited for this tech than just about anyone. I just don't think it is exactly what people are perceiving it to be, and the messaging from Sony is really confusing people.
Here is a Microsoft research vid from 3 years ago. Its definitely been around for a minute. Much of the challenge seems to be in being outside headphones, and making sure the profile matches ear and head shape (distance between ears affects a lot so just your hear shape isn't everything). This is why non-headphone audio doesn't see the benefits yet.
 
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GordoSan

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Here is a Microsoft research vid from 3 years ago. Its definitely been around for a minute. Much of the challenge seems to be in being outside headphones, and making sure the profile matches ear and head shape (distance between ears affects a lot so just your hear shape isn't everything). This is why non-headphone audio doesn't see the benefits yet.
Interesting. Would you mind linking that again? I'm not seeing it. Edit: I guess you're talking about this video? While looking for that, I found a really cool paper on HRTF from 5 years ago from MSResearch. It's actually pretty interesting, and covers this same stuff, and obviously was hot when they were designing Hololens.

Yes, definitely the distance between the ears is just as, if not more important than the ear shape itself, but both of those together must make for the most realistic binaural immersion due to the nature of each of our own individual acoustic perception.

Since speaker placement (and algorithm) is everything with surround sound, I cannot imagine how this would work for anything but headphones. .. If the goal of a particular case in surround sound is to place a pin drop at 3 o'clock (90° R), how would that pin sound different with a modified, ear-shape DSP? It is just the sound of that pin drop itself that needs to be replicated, not HOW you perceive that sound. Your perception does this part naturally. In order to place that sound there with headphones, yes, a stereo output with an added DSP that accommodates mapping of your personal head/ear shape should be absolutely preferable. Here's another question: if this is for surround sound, what will this sound like to a second person in the room? These facts makes me want to double down on saying that there is just no chance this actually makes any sense for normal surround sound/Stereo output.

Atmos and DTS X will still be top dog for standard 2.0-11.2 channel surround, as they are literally putting sound "objects" in an appropriate virtual location based on your personalized setup/dimensions. It should be noted that both Atmos and DTS X have headphone variants for simulated surround sound, but I don't believe that either has an added a head/ear personalization stage at this point. That's where this HRTF will probably shine.
 
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Rollins

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So this article is making the rounds now. It’s from a Chinese dev, and this is google translated from the site below. I speak/read intermediate Mandarin, and my biz partner is Taiwanese (I had her read it as well), so I can at least say the translation is pretty accurate.


Why Do You Think Sony Focuses On The SSD Performance?

Edit: Damn, the Chrome app translates this but won’t let me copy/paste it. If you want to read it, just plug the website into Chrome app and hit translate.

Edit 2:

7BA209F3-A331-4781-855C-27E602148A63.jpeg
E2E1B540-85F4-4679-962C-454F10836ACF.jpeg
8B014606-8310-4EBF-89A2-6B36A894CB39.jpeg
 
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Hedon

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So this article is making the rounds now. It’s from a Chinese dev, and this is google translated from the site below. I speak/read intermediate Mandarin, and my biz partner is Taiwanese (I had her read it as well), so I can at least say the translation is pretty accurate.


Why Do You Think Sony Focuses On The SSD Performance?

Edit: Damn, the Chrome app translates this but won’t let me copy/paste it. If you want to read it, just plug the website into Chrome app and hit translate.
It says the same thing in Chinese and English.
 

wshowers

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I think with the hype train rolling along, I'm slowly coming around to the idea of getting both the PS5 and Series X on day 1. Meaning I will attempt to pre-order one through normal retail channels. If I get one great, if not I'll wait it out until they are available.
 
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