The End of the World: A Political Thread. A New Hope coming soon!

[yankeessuck]

The ONLY reason she's being floated around by establishment types is because of her gender and ethnicity, it has nothing to do with if she can actually win and do a good job. The line of attack against anyone who doesn't want her will be that they are racist or sexist and that's going to turn off middle of the road voters and we need them to win. Let her build her own reputation first and see if she can bring people in, that ICE is like the KKK (perception) question will haunt her for years and it was almost as stupid as Hillary bragging about putting coal miners out of work.

I don't think that is a thing that exists. It doesn't even make sense. Anyone that would have used that as an excuse to vote for Trump was always voting for Trump.

And the ICE thing is barely a story now. Nobody is going to care in 2 years. Whoever the nominee ends up being will probably have way bigger issues they will have to deal with. Including her.

Trump's in his 70's so the other side really can't use age against him.

That doesn't matter. Republicans just show up no matter what. People will need to be excited about the Dem nominee. Whether that will really prevent that excitement I can't say but an 80 year President isn't really ideal.

 

[JinCA]

I don't think that is a thing that exists. It doesn't even make sense. Anyone that would have used that as an excuse to vote for Trump was always voting for Trump.

And the ICE thing is barely a story now. Nobody is going to care in 2 years. Whoever the nominee ends up being will probably have way bigger issues they will have to deal with. Including her.



That doesn't matter. Republicans just show up no matter what. People will need to be excited about the Dem nominee. Whether that will really prevent that excitement I can't say but an 80 year President isn't really ideal.

Not true at all and you are forgetting that a lot of middle of the road people just didn't vote. It's one thing to blame people who voted green or libertarian, those people would never have voted for a Dem or Republican so it's not fair to blame them for a loss but a lot of middle of the road voters who just want someone who isn't off putting to vote for didn't like the way anyone who even dared question HRC was called a sexist. That stuff is real and when the results come down to a few thousand votes in a few different states you need to pay attention to those kinds of things. People get defensive, if I said I don't like Harris and before I was even able to explain why someone got in my face and said I had a problem with women or that I'm racist I'd just say f*** off and leave, that kind of behavior is very annoying and destructive.

The ICE thing will be brought back up, it will be used to stir up the crazies and try to paint her as some kind of race bating lunatic who wants to have open boarders, it won't be true but that's how it'll be used. It was a stupid thing for her to do and she should have known better.

 

[JinCA]

The economy has actually been on a very steady and consistent climb since the recession of 2008. If anything, Trump has added a little volatility.

Yeah it's just continuing down the road that Obama started, sadly the poor and middle class aren't seeing much if any benefit from it at all.

 

[yankeessuck]

Not true at all and you are forgetting that a lot of middle of the road people just didn't vote.

Because it was two historically disliked candidates.

It's one thing to blame people who voted green or libertarian, those people would never have voted for a Dem or Republican so it's not fair to blame them for a loss

Disagree and even if so I still blame them because those candidates weren't going to win. Whether its a protest vote or convincing themselves that Jill Stein isn't also terrible it makes no difference.

but a lot of middle of the road voters who just want someone who isn't off putting to vote for didn't like the way anyone who even dared question HRC was called a sexist. That stuff is real and when the results come down to a few thousand votes in a few different states you need to pay attention to those kinds of things.

Its nothing more than someone trying to justify their vote. There is no evidence that that is anything meaningful and lets be real here. Do you really thing false claims of sexism would actually cost more votes than actual sexism? Its not like that doesn't exist. Wouldn't that be an even better reason to put a man as the nominee?

The ICE thing will be brought back up, it will be used to stir up the crazies and try to paint her as some kind of race bating lunatic who wants to have open boarders, it won't be true but that's how it'll be used. It was a stupid thing for her to do and she should have known better.

Everything and anything will be used. Bernie will be the crazy Socialist. Biden will be a creepy molester. They will all want to take your guns. Real baggage matters. The fake baggage will be there regardless. This is not real because already nobody cares.

 

[Kerosene31]

Of course we all should have voted for Hillary. Trump is telling people in Cali to rake their leaves FFS.

Still, Hillary is the classic example of how out of touch the Democratic party can be. 2018 was a big improvement of course, but we've got a long way to go.

The GOP is going to call the next candidate someone for "open borders" and "socialism" and they need to respond with something more than calling them deplorables back (even if it is true).

I've said it a ton of times, the Dems need to decide if they want to sit on their high horse, or win an election. See how far they get with the moral high ground.

 

[JinCA]

Because it was two historically disliked candidates.



Disagree and even if so I still blame them because those candidates weren't going to win. Whether its a protest vote or convincing themselves that Jill Stein isn't also terrible it makes no difference.



Its nothing more than someone trying to justify their vote. There is no evidence that that is anything meaningful and lets be real here. Do you really thing false claims of sexism would actually cost more votes than actual sexism? Its not like that doesn't exist. Wouldn't that be an even better reason to put a man as the nominee?



Everything and anything will be used. Bernie will be the crazy Socialist. Biden will be a creepy molester. They will all want to take your guns. Real baggage matters. The fake baggage will be there regardless. This is not real because already nobody cares.

Candidates aren't owed votes they have to be earned, someone voting green wasn't going to come vote for Hillary they just wouldn't vote.

 

[yankeessuck]

Candidates aren't owed votes they have to be earned, someone voting green wasn't going to come vote for Hillary they just wouldn't vote.

Voting third party isn't much different than not voting.

 

[JinCA]

Voting third party isn't much different than not voting.

It's so annoying when people blame 3rd party candidates for someone else losing, without a 3rd party option those people just never would have voted to begin with so it's not like Stein or Johnson took votes from Clinton or Trump.

While you are right that voting for a 3rd party doesn't seem to be very effective at least those people voted for who they wanted vs being pushed around and forced to vote for someone they didn't like. Ranked-choice voting would be a great way to get more people out and participating, it seems like a great option and I hope it catches on nationally.

 

[Kerosene31]

Voting 3rd party is all about keeping other options on the ballot. You know, as the major parties start running horrible candidates.

The libertarian party needs to be allowed to show up to the debates. As much as I voted Democrat down the line in 2018, we need more options seeing as the GOP has gone crazy.

With the electoral college, more votes wouldn't have mattered for Hillary except in those couple of states where it was really close. I voted 3rd party and guess what happened? Hillary won my state by a massive amount anyway.

For people who happen to be in those close states? Go vote and vote major party. The rest of us though? It isn't critical.

Plus nearly half the country doesn't vote. Half. The 3rd party voters are barely a blip on the radar. The problem in 2016 was all the people who saw what was going on and simply didn't care enough to take 20 minutes out of their day to vote.

That's what you get with voter suppression systems though. Unless you vote in Florida or one of the other close states, your vote doesn't really count.

 

[yankeessuck]

It's so annoying when people blame 3rd party candidates for someone else losing, without a 3rd party option those people just never would have voted to begin with so it's not like Stein or Johnson took votes from Clinton or Trump.

While you are right that voting for a 3rd party doesn't seem to be very effective at least those people voted for who they wanted vs being pushed around and forced to vote for someone they didn't like. Ranked-choice voting would be a great way to get more people out and participating, it seems like a great option and I hope it catches on nationally.

Some people would have still voted and some wouldn't

I don't have any respect for the people that just wouldn't vote either so that is not a defense. 3rd party voters aren't the reason Trump won but sometimes those votes can make a difference. I have no respect for people that vote 3rd in places where it matters. Don't try and make yourself feel better by lighting your vote on fire. I have no respect for the people that are too lazy to vote either.

Sure it would be nice if there were more relevant parties but thats not going to happen and the electoral college makes it something I'm not sure we actually do want as much as we think. If a party were to be relevant they need to start by winning smaller local races. That is what you do if you are a serious party. Instead we get Jill Stein showing up every 4 years to scam people out of money and this

 

[Plainview]

 

[Kerosene31]

Some people would have still voted and some wouldn't

I don't have any respect for the people that just wouldn't vote either so that is not a defense. 3rd party voters aren't the reason Trump won but sometimes those votes can make a difference. I have no respect for people that vote 3rd in places where it matters. Don't try and make yourself feel better by lighting your vote on fire. I have no respect for the people that are too lazy to vote either.

Sure it would be nice if there were more relevant parties but thats not going to happen and the electoral college makes it something I'm not sure we actually do want as much as we think. If a party were to be relevant they need to start by winning smaller local races. That is what you do if you are a serious party. Instead we get Jill Stein showing up every 4 years to scam people out of money and this

You keep posting this, yet look at what we have in the White House?

When the two party system gives is Trump, we need a much better system. What if in 2020 the Democrats run Oprah and Alec Baldwin? What if some left wing SJW nut wins the nomination? This is the world we live in. Trump could just be the start on the other side. They had creationists up on stage in 2016. That's terrifying.

You keep acting like the "established" parties are these great institutions that are infallible. I'll rest a little easier knowing that if the so called "great" parties continue to go off the rails, at least there will be more names on the ballot.

The two party system is a glass prison that people force themselves into.

 

[Plainview]

You keep posting this, yet look at what we have in the White House?

When the two party system gives is Trump, we need a much better system. What if in 2020 the Democrats run Oprah and Alec Baldwin? What if some left wing SJW nut wins the nomination? This is the world we live in. Trump could just be the start on the other side. They had creationists up on stage in 2016. That's terrifying.

You keep acting like the "established" parties are these great institutions that are infallible. I'll rest a little easier knowing that if the so called "great" parties continue to go off the rails, at least there will be more names on the ballot.

The two party system is a glass prison that people force themselves into.

I agree with that, but we need to wait until the 2024 election to think of voting anything other than democrat.

 

[horns]

Of course we all should have voted for Hillary. Trump is telling people in Cali to rake their leaves FFS.

Still, Hillary is the classic example of how out of touch the Democratic party can be. 2018 was a big improvement of course, but we've got a long way to go.

The GOP is going to call the next candidate someone for "open borders" and "socialism" and they need to respond with something more than calling them deplorables back (even if it is true).

I've said it a ton of times, the Dems need to decide if they want to sit on their high horse, or win an election. See how far they get with the moral high ground.

If Hillary is the classic example of how out of touch the Democratic party can be, which candidate was "in touch" in 2016?

 

[yankeessuck]

You keep posting this, yet look at what we have in the White House?

When the two party system gives is Trump, we need a much better system. What if in 2020 the Democrats run Oprah and Alec Baldwin? What if some left wing SJW nut wins the nomination? This is the world we live in. Trump could just be the start on the other side. They had creationists up on stage in 2016. That's terrifying.

You keep acting like the "established" parties are these great institutions that are infallible. I'll rest a little easier knowing that if the so called "great" parties continue to go off the rails, at least there will be more names on the ballot.

The two party system is a glass prison that people force themselves into.

No I'm not acting like that at all and what you are saying is very logical but do you actually think any of that is going to change?

And you are focusing on the Presidential race. These other parties can't win any races. So again I ask if they aren't taking themselves seriously why should we?

And lets keep in mind that a scenario of many viable parties would have to also lead to electoral college changes unless you want the House picking who wins

We both want more options but we also both know thats not going to happen.

 

[Kerosene31]

No I'm not acting like that at all and what you are saying is very logical but do you actually think any of that is going to change?

And you are focusing on the Presidential race. These other parties can't win any races. So again I ask if they aren't taking themselves seriously why should we?

And lets keep in mind that a scenario of many viable parties would have to also lead to electoral college changes unless you want the House picking who wins

We both want more options but we also both know thats not going to happen.

Donald Trump is President of the US. Tell me what is or is not possible? Seriously.

As much as I hate the people who voted for him, many votes for Trump were essentially "burn it down" votes.

People keep thinking the unthinkable won't happen even after it has.

I'm guessing you maybe live in a state that isn't a foregone conclusion? Our polls in NY are open until 9pm. In 2012, I ran out to vote at 7:30pm as they were announcing all the winners. It was over before it is over.

So yes, if 2020 is remotely close in my state, I'll vote Democrat of course. I voted for Obama twice.

 

[yankeessuck]

Donald Trump is President of the US. Tell me what is or is not possible? Seriously.

Can't argue with that

I'm guessing you maybe live in a state that isn't a foregone conclusion? Our polls in NY are open until 9pm. In 2012, I ran out to vote at 7:30pm as they were announcing all the winners. It was over before it is over.

Yes and obviously this is about swing states.

Except when it comes to voting for Jill Stein. She just sucks.

 

[Kerosene31]

If Hillary is the classic example of how out of touch the Democratic party can be, which candidate was "in touch" in 2016?

That was entirely the problem. There was Bernie (who went indie right after the election), Hillary, and that other guy who bowed out before anyone bothered to remember his name. At one point the GOP had 8 people running (that probably actually contributed to Trump winning).

Two ends of the extreme. The Democrats didn't run enough people to get people engaged, while the GOP actually split the "not-crazy" vote too thin.

 

[Plainview]

 

[Videodrome]

Isn't Trump himself kind of a 3rd Party? The Trump Party?

Ron Paul previously tried running as a Libertarian. Well, screw that u guess if 3rd parties are barred from debates. So he ran as a Republican. Eventually, we get Gary Johnson as well though he was squeezed out of the debates.

Bernie Sanders is more of an independent Socialist / Progressive, but ran as a Democrat.

If 3rd Parties remain excluded the way the are, a new approach emerges of simply hijacking either main 2 parties creating total Primary chaos.

 

[horns]

DON'T YOU DARE SAY TRUMP IS 3RD PARTY!! That makes me mad, seriously angry. Trump is Republican and Republicans are Trump. They must own him and the disaster he is as well as what they allowed unchecked. Someday in the future we'll hear cowards say Trump wasn't really Republican as they're trying to rebrand their party. That day is not today.

That was entirely the problem. There was Bernie (who went indie right after the election), Hillary, and that other guy who bowed out before anyone bothered to remember his name. At one point the GOP had 8 people running (that probably actually contributed to Trump winning).

Two ends of the extreme. The Democrats didn't run enough people to get people engaged, while the GOP actually split the "not-crazy" vote too thin.

The DNC doesn't pick who runs. Just about anyone can get on the TV debates so long as they have 1% or more in three polls and declare candidacy with the FEC. The first DNC debate for the 2016 election had 5 people including an independent. The first DNC debate for 2008 had 8 people not much of a difference. And in 2016 the RNC had 15 so they split it into two debates. Both parties will back the candidate the public chooses. I have no problem with more choices. I just don't think that is the problem.

I think it's the voters. Republicans will vote for the worst of the worst. They'll lie and cheat in order to win. Their base will not hold them accountable. While Democrats and some independents hold their candidates to a higher standard. Kamala Harris says something stupid and both Republicans and Democrats will knock her for it. Meanwhile Republicans including or excluding Trump say dumb stuff daily and is barely covered by the right leaning media. There are branches of government being run by individuals intentionally trying to sabotage them right now and we're worried she compared ICE to the KKK? Or the same old Pelosi -hate I hear from worthless conservative family. We need to get over it. We can't constantly bash our candidate and theirs then expect them to do the same.

So was anyone "in touch" in 2016 in your opinion?

 

[Viktor]

Well maybe third party will help in the case of Georgia's runoff for Sec of State. The Libertarian in that race has endorsed the Dem so if voting holds to say as last time with those voters going for the Dem that will help. That said, I could see how someone would say there was no chance for the Libertarian to go anywhere and could have withdrawn and endorsed the Dem for the regular election. I am for having third parties have a bigger chance, but lets be honest, it's going to be damn near impossible unless there is a reckoning from the Republicans if Trump hurts them enough. Then perhaps a new wave of "modern" Republicans can form a new party and let the MAGAts go their own way.

 

[Kerosene31]

DON'T YOU DARE SAY TRUMP IS 3RD PARTY!! That makes me mad, seriously angry. Trump is Republican and Republicans are Trump. They must own him and the disaster he is as well as what they allowed unchecked. Someday in the future we'll hear cowards say Trump wasn't really Republican as they're trying to rebrand their party. That day is not today.

I hate to tell you, but that's exactly what is going to happen. The GOP is going to turn on Trump the moment they think he can't win the next election. Only question is if it happens before 2020 or after.

They are going to rebrand their party. They are going to deny, deny deny and not miss a beat. My 2nd biggest fear in 2020 is Trump backing out and someone like Paul Ryan comes in and pretends the last few years never happened. They are going to pull the old slap and tickle.

This is why I rally against the 2 party system so much. Putting that "R" on Trump makes him just palatable by enough Republicans.

 

[JinCA]

Two party system needs to go, of course as long as those two parties control everything and people don't speak up with their votes nothing will happen.

As far as blaming 3rd party voters for Trump, again that's a copout by many on my side who don't want to admit that Hillary was just an awful choice. Too many were more concerned with making herstory than nominating someone the country could actually get behind. She was one of the two least popular candidates ever for a reason AND she represented what a lot of people are sick of in our political system. Anyone who says they voted for Trump because they think he's honest is lying themselves (or to themselves) they just wanted to see the system we have shaken up and I can understand that desire, I can't understand voting for someone as incompetent and reprehensible as he is but I get the desire to shake things up. If you want to blame anyone for Trump winning you blame the people that voted for him and you blame Hillary for not being able to persuade more people that she should be our President, don't put the blame on people who voted 3rd party.

 

[Spiritech]

Getting money out of politics will make it easier to have more parties. Something like 23 of the dems that flipped seats took no corporate pac money. I need to re find that article to double check the numbers but it was a good amount.

 

[yankeessuck]

Two party system needs to go, of course as long as those two parties control everything and people don't speak up with their votes nothing will happen.

As far as blaming 3rd party voters for Trump, again that's a copout by many on my side who don't want to admit that Hillary was just an awful choice. Too many were more concerned with making herstory than nominating someone the country could actually get behind. She was one of the two least popular candidates ever for a reason AND she represented what a lot of people are sick of in our political system. Anyone who says they voted for Trump because they think he's honest is lying themselves (or to themselves) they just wanted to see the system we have shaken up and I can understand that desire, I can't understand voting for someone as incompetent and reprehensible as he is but I get the desire to shake things up. If you want to blame anyone for Trump winning you blame the people that voted for him and you blame Hillary for not being able to persuade more people that she should be our President, don't put the blame on people who voted 3rd party.

I will blame all the people you just mentioned. And Bernie.

 

[Kerosene31]

Getting money out of politics will make it easier to have more parties. Something like 23 of the dems that flipped seats took no corporate pac money. I need to re find that article to double check the numbers but it was a good amount.

Hopefully someday we see major campaign finance reform. Put a tight spending cap on individual donations and ban all corporate donations.

 

[Videodrome]

I the age we live in with communication technology, will traditional expensive campaigns still be as necessary?


I suppose plane flights and some rallies will continue. It just seems silly that we stick with the same old tools like awful commercials.

 

[Videodrome]

Meanwhile in Canada, don't they have a 4 way race?

 

[horns]

Two party system needs to go, of course as long as those two parties control everything and people don't speak up with their votes nothing will happen.

As far as blaming 3rd party voters for Trump, again that's a copout by many on my side who don't want to admit that Hillary was just an awful choice. Too many were more concerned with making herstory than nominating someone the country could actually get behind. She was one of the two least popular candidates ever for a reason AND she represented what a lot of people are sick of in our political system. Anyone who says they voted for Trump because they think he's honest is lying themselves (or to themselves) they just wanted to see the system we have shaken up and I can understand that desire, I can't understand voting for someone as incompetent and reprehensible as he is but I get the desire to shake things up. If you want to blame anyone for Trump winning you blame the people that voted for him and you blame Hillary for not being able to persuade more people that she should be our President, don't put the blame on people who voted 3rd party.

She was the least popular candidate ever? By that logic I should assume the measurement of favorability is popularity and that wins elections? Why didn't popularity high favorability help Romney, McCain, Kerry or McCain win? Or Sanders? Clinton had extremely high favorability heading into the election more on that later. These are very partisan times and I seriously doubt any candidate and leader from either party is going to have very high favorability. Another measure of popularity is to look at the vote counts aka popular vote. In which case, Clinton was just a tiny bit behind Gore and Kerry, but otherwise bested every Democrat since Carter with the exception of Obama and Bill Clinton's reelection.

I don't blame 3rd party voters. I do blame other things. I will say that Clinton was far from a perfect candidate. It was never going to be an "easy" win despite what many thought. The insane challenges (7 Benghazi investigations over 4 years, bulls*** email investigation, FBI reopening an investigation ten days before the election, the FBI not disclosing Trump was facing even worse, Wikileaks, blame for everything Bill did, unfair criticism by the media, number of false accusations, being a woman, and the attitude of many) are unlike any candidate has every faced. I still hear people lie about her regularly and it surprises me more don't correct them. I do hope the next candidate doesn't face the same challenges.