Official Thread Pillow Fight that nobody wins with MOAR Jackie Chan and guys comfortable with STRETCHING their sexuality!

[Flynn]

Joe schmo consumer will notice the difference in load times in Destiny.

Not likely.

Joe Schmo won't notice a damn difference between either system. Zealots on either side will try to convince their less tech savvy "Joe Schmo" friends that one is superior over the other for x reason, but without poking, prodding, and explaining - Joe Schmo won't notice a damn thing different between the output of these boxes.

 

[OneBadMutha]

Not likely.

Joe Schmo won't notice a damn difference between either system. Zealots on either side will try to convince their less tech savvy "Joe Schmo" friends that one is superior over the other for x reason, but without poking, prodding, and explaining - Joe Schmo won't notice a damn thing different between the output of these boxes.

Probably should reframe that. I think you can sell Joe Schmo on fastest load times. Unfortunately Schmo doesnt know ish about Ray Tracing. I bet I don't know one person in real life who's heard of it.

Ultimately Schmo's mom or grandma will go for price.

 

[Rollins]

This doesn’t mean the PS5 doesn’t have it, but I’d think I’d they did they would have announced it by now...?

 

[Frozpot]

The argument over how often the PS5 run at max GPU and CPU doesn't seem that important in terms of overall performance. 1TF worth of power is a lot of nothing. For multiplats, the Xbox advantage is CUs for ray tracing and possibly physics. Much like resolution, those things can scale and developers will be scaling those things higher than consoles on PC. Nothing the PS5 does with boosts overcomes the CUs. The PS5 advantage is load times. Joe schmo consumer will notice the difference in load times in Destiny.

All the rest of this bull arguing over whether the PS5 will be able to maintain that overclocked Tflop or whether the Xbox Series X has some imaginary bottleneck that a fanboy on the internet discovered over all the other tech experts who've been doing this for years has gotten boring.

What is real is that the PS5 runs hot. I am interested in it's cooling system. Those frequencies legit scare me and I'm not confident being on the first batch of those consoles. I might be in the minority but I would've rather the PS5 be a 8.5 - 9 TF console that ran quiet and reliably. Especially if these boost clocks push up the price due to yields. I will be very interested in seeing what the PS5 runs like and it would be nice for DF to get their hands on the real machine.

I think it is safe to say that even the One X runs hot. It's why MS implemented that vapor chamber in the first place. It's also the exact reason for the entire layout and form factor for the Series X. MS even talked about how they had to design the SSD around heat dissipation too, because heat affects performance. It's a huge part of the design, so it's obviously a major concern. It will be interesting to see Sony's solution, and yes, given the high clocks and more narrow design, i am not at all surprised to hear heating issue rumors.

 

[OneBadMutha]

I think it is safe to say that even the One X runs hot. It's why MS implemented that vapor chamber in the first place. It's also the exact reason for the entire layout and form factor for the Series X. MS even talked about how they had to design the SSD around heat dissipation too, because heat affects performance. It's a huge part of the design, so it's obviously a major concern. It will be interesting to see Sony's solution, and yes, given the high clocks and more narrow design, i am not at all surprised to hear heating issue rumors.

I have reason to believe the talk. People at Era may think Jez Corden is a shill but I know the guy enough to know he gets in trouble with his employer if he puts a rumor out there that turns out to be bull. He's sat on stuff in the past that turned out to be true because he wasn't sure of the sources. If he's saying he's hearing that devs are saying theres heat issues, it's what he's heard regardless of whether the issue gets resolved before launch. Business Insider indicated low yields. I hope none of it is true because it isnt good for anyone. PS5 cooling, noise and reliability is a much bigger deal to me than the extra tflop. So far Sony has avoided letting anyone outside get too close to their solutions there.

 

[hrudey]

Once again devs pushing everything to the GPU sounds more like they just don't need the extra CPU power right now because most of their games are cross gen and built around jaguar. I think you are seeing a problem in that quote when there really isn't one, especially when the next line in the article says they don't need that power on the CPU. I don't think Sony would have taken this route just to make things harder for devs, clearly they see a benefit in doing things this way even though it's different than the old traditional method . Cerny is still involved in making games so he does know what would make things easier and more efficient and I'm sure that experience is what he based his decisions on when designing the console.

They don't need it now, like a lot of devs don't need SMT now. Will they need it some day or are they giving too much CPU power already? Dunno. Having to optimize for how much power is required isn't just coding to the metal, it's coding to the electron. But it makes the point that, given the choice, the devs are currently giving up potential performance to ensure "locked"ish clocks.

I still can't fathom how cooling a reasonable CPU clock speed and a heavily overclocked GPU can be equally difficult, or why that's the balance target chosen. It may all come back to keeping the same cu count for back compat, which is a shame if it's the case.

 

[eVo7]

The argument over how often the PS5 run at max GPU and CPU doesn't seem that important in terms of overall performance. 1TF worth of power is a lot of nothing. For multiplats, the Xbox advantage is CUs for ray tracing and possibly physics. Much like resolution, those things can scale and developers will be scaling those things higher than consoles on PC. Nothing the PS5 does with boosts overcomes the CUs. The PS5 advantage is load times. Joe schmo consumer will notice the difference in load times in Destiny.

All the rest of this bull arguing over whether the PS5 will be able to maintain that overclocked Tflop or whether the Xbox Series X has some imaginary bottleneck that a fanboy on the internet discovered over all the other tech experts who've been doing this for years has gotten boring.

What is real is that the PS5 runs hot. I am interested in it's cooling system. Those frequencies legit scare me and I'm not confident being on the first batch of those consoles. I might be in the minority but I would've rather the PS5 be a 8.5 - 9 TF console that ran quiet and reliably. Especially if these boost clocks push up the price due to yields. I will be very interested in seeing what the PS5 runs like and it would be nice for DF to get their hands on the real machine.

Ray Tracing is done on dedicated hardware per MS, running Ray Tracing on CU's isn't hardware RT.

 

[OneBadMutha]

Ray Tracing is done on dedicated hardware per MS, running Ray Tracing on CU's isn't hardware RT.

CU count directly impacts hardware ray tracing according to DF.

 

[JinCA]

No one is saying it is certain. All I'm saying is I had 2 360s RROD on me and I personally am wondering what and how the cooling on the PS5 is going to work and work well. Running with rumors is one thing but also being genuinely concerned is another.

Rumors are garbage, people were trying to say the same thing about the PS4 before it launched.

I wouldn't bother comparing it to RROD, MS F'd that up because they rushed the console out, they knew there was a chance it was going to be an issue and they decided to push it out anyway because they wanted to get away from the money losing OG Xbox as quickly as possible and also get a head start against Sony. There is nothing like that going on this time, nobody is trying to rush anything out the door and neither of these companies are going to take a risk like that.

 

[JinCA]

There is a difference between what he is feed us and what we are seeing. He wording is the problem and he not going to flat out and day it's a weaker system.

If that wasn't the case Cerny would of said already from day one.

What are we seeing? Nobody has shown anything yet other than "in engine BS" (It's always BS not just when MS does it) and clips of current gen games loading faster from SSD's, they haven't shown us anything actually built for these consoles yet, you just seem to want this stuff to be true lol.

Cerny hasn't said one word about the series X, nobody has even asked him about it that we have seen and I'm sorry but to expect him to talk about MS when he's doing a deep dive into his own consoles specs seems a bit silly.

 

[TeKPhaN]

Wrong. That's false. That's not at all true.

Xbox Series X has a sizable advantage in every way regarding rendering prowess. It's not close. Xbox Series X wins, hands down.

Xbox Series X wears the power crown clearly and comfortably. The "power" war is won. It's over.

Overall yes but it's impossible to be clearly and comfortably when PS5 is better in some aspects that are mentioned throughout this thread and no I'm not getting into them again.
It's much much closer than what you want people to believe.

 

[JinCA]

The Val and JinCA Sony defense force is amusing at least. Keep up the good work guys.

Defense force? We've both said the XSX is more powerful so wtf are you talking about? lol. Also trying to help people understand things when they keep spreading misinformation isn't "defense force" it's making sure they understand what they are saying is wrong. The people who keep saying that both clocks can't run at their full frequency are being pigheaded about it, they have seen that they are wrong but it doesn't fit the narrative they've built in their head so they just won't accept the facts.

 

[TeKPhaN]

There is a difference between what he is feed us and what we are seeing. He wording is the problem and he not going to flat out and day it's a weaker system.

If that wasn't the case Cerny would of said already from day one.

It was clear when he said it and when he said it again to DF.

 

[TeKPhaN]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is true. The system with those clocks and that SSD speed is going to generate more heat than the Series X. Sony needs to get it right or they're going to suffer their own RROD situation.
In fact I plan on buying both but depending on what the PS5 ending design looks like I might wait it out initially. I don't want to be one of the early adopters plagued by a loud AND overheated system.

Paid MS shill Jez has his hands all over that site it was exposed yesterday at gaf.

 

[TeKPhaN]

I don't think he's lying. He said they expect it to be at or near those frequencies most of the time.

He also told DF that a 10% drop in frequency yields a 27% drop in power to give more of an idea of the power curve beyond the "couple" percent leading to 10% per savings. That lines up with the 2.23 being pretty in the range where a lot of voltage has to be thrown in for minor gains.

I heard no such statement.
You have time stamps?

 

[ZombiesRUCrazy]

Round and round we go, here come the paid shill accusations lmao. Just plastic toys people.

 

[eVo7]

I think it is safe to say that even the One X runs hot. It's why MS implemented that vapor chamber in the first place. It's also the exact reason for the entire layout and form factor for the Series X. MS even talked about how they had to design the SSD around heat dissipation too, because heat affects performance. It's a huge part of the design, so it's obviously a major concern. It will be interesting to see Sony's solution, and yes, given the high clocks and more narrow design, i am not at all surprised to hear heating issue rumors.

This difference here is that the One X doesn't sound like a jet engine if your console isn't defective. It is widely known as a quiet system. I would rather have an overbuilt cooling system so they don't have to run a fan at 10000rpm just to keep the chip under TJ max.

 

[TeKPhaN]

Round and round we go, here come the paid shill accusations lmao. Just plastic toys people.

Jez is a MS guy

 

[JinCA]

They don't need it now, like a lot of devs don't need SMT now. Will they need it some day or are they giving too much CPU power already? Dunno. Having to optimize for how much power is required isn't just coding to the metal, it's coding to the electron. But it makes the point that, given the choice, the devs are currently giving up potential performance to ensure "locked"ish clocks.

I still can't fathom how cooling a reasonable CPU clock speed and a heavily overclocked GPU can be equally difficult, or why that's the balance target chosen. It may all come back to keeping the same cu count for back compat, which is a shame if it's the case.

They will need it someday and by then they'll have had time to actually build their engines around the new hardware and how to take advantage of it vs just trying to pretty up cross-gen games for the first year or two. It's going to be interesting to see how it all unfolds, they took this route for a reason and they obviously see some benefits in doing what they are doing.

 

[JinCA]

This difference here is that the One X doesn't sound like a jet engine if your console isn't defective. It is widely known as a quiet system. I would rather have an overbuilt cooling system so they don't have to run a fan at 10000rpm just to keep the chip under TJ max.

They've already said the PS5 is going to be quieter than the Pro and the fact that they know how hot it can get because it has a power limit that will be constant means that they don't have to have a fan that kicks in at different speeds depending on the variable power draw that you get with a traditional console design.

I saw this explanation from a poster on resetera named Liabe Brave who generally seems to have a pretty good grasp on things.

The more you can increase power efficiency, the more work the CPU and GPU can do for the same console design. By flattening the typical power curve, Sony no longer had to design cooling for transient peaks. This allowed them to not just reach but notably exceed 2GHz for the GPU, raising their TF metric. Controlling the temps was a means to an end, not the only goal.

 

[ZombiesRUCrazy]

Jez is a MS guy

Doesn't make him a paid shill. He has no problem criticizing MS just like Brad Sams and Paul Thurrott.

By your logic, majority of the game press are paid Sony shills.

Hell gaming generally would be paid sony shills since the entire industry leans Sony, by your logic.

It's okay to have a console preference. People just need to chill with the FUD though.

 

[hrudey]

I heard no such statement.
You have time stamps?

From the article:

Put simply, with race to idle out of the equation and both CPU and GPU fully used, the boost clock system should still see both components running near to or at peak frequency most of the time. Cerny also stresses that power consumption and clock speeds don't have a linear relationship. Dropping frequency by 10 per cent reduces power consumption by around 27 per cent. "In general, a 10 per cent power reduction is just a few per cent reduction in frequency," Cerny emphasises.

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

 

[hrudey]

They will need it someday and by then they'll have had time to actually build their engines around the new hardware and how to take advantage of it vs just trying to pretty up cross-gen games for the first year or two. It's going to be interesting to see how it all unfolds, they took this route for a reason and they obviously see some benefits in doing what they are doing.

So you're saying they'll be able to learn to take advantage of downclocks later in the gen?

There was a reason. It probably was back compat limiting them to 36 CUs tying their hands into an massive overclock to the GPU and designing their cooling and power strategy to sustain a frequency that lets them claim to expect at or near double digits in TF most of the time.

 

[Viktor]

I can never stay up that late

Fox at 9 then?

 

[lowdru2k]

Defense force? We've both said the XSX is more powerful so wtf are you talking about? lol. Also trying to help people understand things when they keep spreading misinformation isn't "defense force" it's making sure they understand what they are saying is wrong. The people who keep saying that both clocks can't run at their full frequency are being pigheaded about it, they have seen that they are wrong but it doesn't fit the narrative they've built in their head so they just won't accept the facts.

Yes wear your Sony badge with pride.

 

[PermanentSelfBan]

Gonna get both and put an SSD in my TV.

 

[TeKPhaN]

From the article:

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

I didn't hear this in the video.
Mark has said a couple...
People like DF have said a few and some have said even more.

 

[hrudey]

I didn't hear this in the video.
Mark has said a couple...
People like DF have said a few and some have said even more.

They were speaking with him directly. If they misquoted him, I'm sure Sony would demand a correction.

 

[TeKPhaN]

Doesn't make him a paid shill. He has no problem criticizing MS just like Brad Sams and Paul Thurrott.

By your logic, majority of the game press are paid Sony shills.

Hell gaming generally would be paid sony shills since the entire industry leans Sony, by your logic.

It's okay to have a console preference. People just need to chill with the FUD though.

You can't be this blind

 

[wshowers]

Assuming these consoles release this year ( I'm highly skeptical at this point), I wonder what there launch line up are going to look like. Obviously the XBSX is going to have Halo Infinite and I assume the PS5 will have GodFall but outside of those 2 its fun to guess what is going to be a launch title.

For MS, I'm going to guess Flight Simulator and maybe Hellblade 2.
For Sony, I'm going to guess The Last of Us 2, maybe Gran Turismo 7.

As for third party, I expect the normal sports games along with a new Assassins Creed, Call of Duty, maybe Cyberpunk 2077.