Rumour - PS4 performance boost (vs. X1, DX12, etc.)
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Kassen: Unless the software is overclocking the hardware, it's unlikely that the system will overheat from a software change like this. Generally, these kinds of optimizations don't brute-force more work, they generally make calculations more efficient, so you expend the same energy while improving the output.
Valliance: There are *always* software optimizations to be made. *always*. Imagine a process runs every cycle, and it takes 10ms to run. If an engineer realizes you can get the same output (or comparable output) with an execution that only takes 1ms to run, you've just increased perf by 900% with no hardware change... but this fold into my next point...
These kinds of "10x-100x" discussions are always misleading, and the more ambiguous the claim, the more suspect you should be. In this case, they're pretty specific - "tiling/detiling perf is rumored to be 10x-100x faster", but we still don't have enough information to know what specific part of the process has been improved that much, or how much of a generalized perf gain that will result in... so it's not at all like the claim is, "the cPU iZ 100x fASTAHHH!" - not at all. That's not even what the rumored claim is... but pay attention to the wide spread; "10x - 100x" - it's not like that's some arbitrary spread. They probably found that one small part of the process can be executed at nearly 100x the rate by making some small/inconsequential concession, and another one can be increase by around 10x. They're probably talking about TWO (or more) different processes. It's not like they're saying, "yeah - all games will effectively get a CPU that's 10x=100x faster!" - no, not at all... very specific functions probably run exponentially faster, and while that's ALWAYS a good thing, the real-world benefits are just unclear right now for this claim to mean much.
Starseeker: It's very much meant to be taken literally, it's just likely not meant to be taken at the "scope" that's implied. The scope some are inferring is some sort of a generalized, over-arching perf boost of 10x to 100x, and that's just completely nonsensical. Meaning, I have no doubt they've been able to make some software changes which increase perf of some specific processes to the point where they're exponentially faster and more efficient... but it would be horribly irresponsible and misleading to assume this will be some massive/incredible perf gain.
The DX12 perf gains are much more specific, and yet also broader in scope. DX12 isn't just limited to increasing the perf of tiling/de-tiling... so these are two very different claims, though even with DX12, people should keep expectations in check. DX12's perf gains are *not* rumor, they are factual and measurable, but even still - DX12 is still more than a year off, and things can change... so yeah, keep expectations in check.
All of that said, the power of the cloud, while an internet joke, is very real, and very meaningful. We've seen demos which prove it, games which are already better because of it, and we're only 6 months in to a 10 year cycle...
JinCA: While it's perfectly reasonable and expect that both systems will see improvements, X1 does have more room to grow, because with it's specialized hardware, it's more difficult to tap it's full potential. So today, we're seeing PS4 games running at proportionately higher efficiency than the X1 games, and that will change more dramatically on the X1 side. So yeah, sure we'll see more gains from both, but X1 does have further to go in terms of optimizations than PS4... not to mention, there's a whole new canvas with the cloud that has yet to be even close to tapped... and Sony just can't compete there. They don't have the time, the money, or the expertise to compete there.
Net/Net - cross plat games will continue to really look and play the same (minus some minor resolution discrepancies from time to time), and first party offerings on both will look incredible. The raw/local perf gap doesn't matter. Ryse is still arguably the best looking next gen game, and it was a launch title on X1... and at the end of the day, it's not power that will decide this gen... it's features, services, and of course - the main event - the games... and I firmly see the games library on X1 as being better at this point, and judging by what I know for the rest of this year and the next, I'm not worried. I'm quite confident our content will continue to beat Sony's.
Valliance: There are *always* software optimizations to be made. *always*. Imagine a process runs every cycle, and it takes 10ms to run. If an engineer realizes you can get the same output (or comparable output) with an execution that only takes 1ms to run, you've just increased perf by 900% with no hardware change... but this fold into my next point...
These kinds of "10x-100x" discussions are always misleading, and the more ambiguous the claim, the more suspect you should be. In this case, they're pretty specific - "tiling/detiling perf is rumored to be 10x-100x faster", but we still don't have enough information to know what specific part of the process has been improved that much, or how much of a generalized perf gain that will result in... so it's not at all like the claim is, "the cPU iZ 100x fASTAHHH!" - not at all. That's not even what the rumored claim is... but pay attention to the wide spread; "10x - 100x" - it's not like that's some arbitrary spread. They probably found that one small part of the process can be executed at nearly 100x the rate by making some small/inconsequential concession, and another one can be increase by around 10x. They're probably talking about TWO (or more) different processes. It's not like they're saying, "yeah - all games will effectively get a CPU that's 10x=100x faster!" - no, not at all... very specific functions probably run exponentially faster, and while that's ALWAYS a good thing, the real-world benefits are just unclear right now for this claim to mean much.
Starseeker: It's very much meant to be taken literally, it's just likely not meant to be taken at the "scope" that's implied. The scope some are inferring is some sort of a generalized, over-arching perf boost of 10x to 100x, and that's just completely nonsensical. Meaning, I have no doubt they've been able to make some software changes which increase perf of some specific processes to the point where they're exponentially faster and more efficient... but it would be horribly irresponsible and misleading to assume this will be some massive/incredible perf gain.
The DX12 perf gains are much more specific, and yet also broader in scope. DX12 isn't just limited to increasing the perf of tiling/de-tiling... so these are two very different claims, though even with DX12, people should keep expectations in check. DX12's perf gains are *not* rumor, they are factual and measurable, but even still - DX12 is still more than a year off, and things can change... so yeah, keep expectations in check.
All of that said, the power of the cloud, while an internet joke, is very real, and very meaningful. We've seen demos which prove it, games which are already better because of it, and we're only 6 months in to a 10 year cycle...
JinCA: While it's perfectly reasonable and expect that both systems will see improvements, X1 does have more room to grow, because with it's specialized hardware, it's more difficult to tap it's full potential. So today, we're seeing PS4 games running at proportionately higher efficiency than the X1 games, and that will change more dramatically on the X1 side. So yeah, sure we'll see more gains from both, but X1 does have further to go in terms of optimizations than PS4... not to mention, there's a whole new canvas with the cloud that has yet to be even close to tapped... and Sony just can't compete there. They don't have the time, the money, or the expertise to compete there.
Net/Net - cross plat games will continue to really look and play the same (minus some minor resolution discrepancies from time to time), and first party offerings on both will look incredible. The raw/local perf gap doesn't matter. Ryse is still arguably the best looking next gen game, and it was a launch title on X1... and at the end of the day, it's not power that will decide this gen... it's features, services, and of course - the main event - the games... and I firmly see the games library on X1 as being better at this point, and judging by what I know for the rest of this year and the next, I'm not worried. I'm quite confident our content will continue to beat Sony's.
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I don't understand all the fuss over tile textures. Who cares whether the linoleum looks good?
If by tons of articles you mean mostly posts from bloggers just repeating what MS says than sure there are a lot of those out there.
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That can be argued about anything. Everything is bloggers or "developers" or "experts" when commenting from the source. the fact is MS confirmed those elements are in the works, sony has not confirmed this.
I'd rather have 100x cpu powerz anyway, its almost like the infinite cell powerz we are still unlocking.
Yeah to make a claim of a 10X to 100X improvement seems odd. That's quite a range.
10%-100% improvement would be more believable. Maybe Sony is the one with hidden hardware?
Instead of sounding like a broken record and propagandizing your company, why don't you instead give us some insight into the disaster that is the Xbox One's core design and how MS will now take a piece of hardware designed for something completely different, to what it is now attempting to do now (chase Sony)?
Tell us how a console fundamentally designed in equal parts for TV integration, Kinect functionality, and games, is now going to shift it's focus to predominantly games without feeling the burn from having to use, or even not being able to use, hardware designed for something else entirely. Software can only take you so far until you hit that brick wall, much akin to using a shovel to rake your lawn.
Makes perfect sense. Why not instead thread ban all the Xealots who can't help but derail any real conversation? I see multiple threads of a similar topic allowed to stay in the Xbox forum, why must anything Sony get thrown into the trash heap of Multi? If we can't discuss Playstation related things in the Playstation forum, what the hell is it there for?
That's likely because things like SDK updates and better tools are things that always happen for consoles over time but so many X1 fans are taking this stuff as if it's brand new. When it comes to tiling PS4 does that as well, it may have a different name but just about everything the X1 can do that people think is so special can be done on the PS4. Sony just isn't in a position to have to go out and tell people about everything, they aren't the ones who have the weaker system.
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1. You're attacking straw men.
Your premise is false. You presuppose a problem which doesn't exist. The console isn't, nor has it ever been "designed in equal parts for TV integration, Kinect functionality, and games", that's just false. Games have always been first, and the top priority, and the hardware is very powerful; easily capable of next generation experiences that (even run on local hardware alone) can match anything the PS4 can do with only minor concessions, yet it's capable (out of the box) of things the PS4 can never do without a hardware peripheral, or major fundamental change.
2. Your "shovel to rake your lawn" analogy is broken.
As a game console alone, Xbox One is easily on par with PS4 in terms of what it can realistically do out of the box for games. You may see some mild resolution differences, but it's nothing which changes or damages the gaming experience in any meaningful way. I don't think gardening tools (in general) are a good category for analogies... but if we had to go with that, Xbox One is more like a tractor which can pull a rake attachment or a lawn-mower attachment, and it can also be controlled either by sitting on it (driving), or with a remote control. PS4's a bit like a nearly identical tractor with a slightly more refined rake attachment, no remote control, and bargin-bin lawn-mower attachment. One tractor is better suited for multiple tasks and interaction models, but due to the other one's less diverse/more focused design - it might rake your lawn *slightly* better... but there are some things it's just not capable of, and never will be capable of (unless some big attachment comes down the line).
By making something support multiple scenarios, you're not inherently making it ineffective at supporting one scenario over the other. Without Kinect, without entertainment apps, and without TV - Xbox One easily stands next to PS4 on games alone - TODAY, AS-IS. The cross platform games play exactly the same (except, perhaps with a better controller on X1) and look near identical to most people in most living rooms. TR is really the only excpetion, given the frame rate delta... but Ryse still looks debatably better than anything else on either platform:
That's 100% real-time. Show me something on PS4 that is better looking than that... and that's a LAUNCH title.
Power (as far as consoles are concerned) isn't an issue with X1. It's easily capable.
3. Both X1 AND PS4 are already overshadowed by PC's.
If anyone's playing "catch up", it's BOTH consoles to PC, and that's one race that won't end well for consoles. Anyone who cares about raw performance and pixel counting needs to move away from console gaming. Period. PC's destroy consoles already (today), and as time goes on, the gap will only widen. Every DX12 optimization made helps both X1 and PC's, so expect incredibly gorgeous games from PC's in the future... the likes of which PS4 could never dream of/touch.
People buy consoles for the ease of use and games library/the exclusive games... I'd argue X1 with Kinect is not only the most streamlined/easy to use next gen console, but also the one with the best games. Today, the library on X1 has more/better AAA offerings... and I don't expect that trend to change. Today, X1 has the best MP experience PERIOD in Titanfall, and it's because of the cloud.
X1 was always designed for games, and has always had games as a prominent/primary focus... initial messaging really screwed up that point, and Phil's fixing it... but it's simply false to assume therefore that games were less of a focus, and that the design of the system wasn't primarily focused on gaming. I don't blame you for assuming as much, given our crappy messaging, but it's (nevertheless) a false assertion on your part, coming from ignorance.
Whatever technical optimizations is happening, Naughty Dogs game is going to be graphically amazing on the PS4. I will say this again, no amount of optimization is going to close the hardware gap between PS4 - XB1.
This thread is as tame as it gets. This is nothing compared to the nonsense that went on in the Xbox version of this thread, the multiple threads. I see no posts in here that I would delete, none. I would have kept it in the PlayStation forum though.
Plainview, I keep "vs" talk out of the PS forum.
Just finished deleting all the off-topic posts (including several of yours, OJ). It was about half the thread, which is why I chose to transplant it originally. Sometimes major surgery can be fatal to the patient, i.e., it kills the discussion. I guess we'll see if there's anything to say, once the topic is restricted to the PS4.
Ok folks, no more "vs" talk, no more talk about X1 or DX12 etc or veiled allusions to such. If you want to discuss that, start a thread in the MP or Xbox forum.
edit: never mind, I changed my mind (see several posts below). Subject is open.
Just finished deleting all the off-topic posts (including several of yours, OJ). It was about half the thread, which is why I chose to transplant it originally. Sometimes major surgery can be fatal to the patient, i.e., it kills the discussion. I guess we'll see if there's anything to say, once the topic is restricted to the PS4.
edit: never mind, I changed my mind (see several posts below). Subject is open.
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I'd guess that depends on how you define "just about everything".
I think TV pass through is special, cool, and unique.
I think Kinect's light-independent identification system is special.
I think the utilization of a massive world-wide cloud for MP scenarios, compute off-load, dedicated servers with dynamic auto-scaling is special. Very special, in fact.
I think being able to turn on my system with my voice when I walk into my home (prior to touching any controller) is special.
I think having my controller dynamically and automatically switch into power saving mode when it's been determined to be "not in use" is special, and saves me time/energy
None of that can be replicated on the PS4 without significant hardware changes, add-ons, and-or cost-prohibitive investments that Sony simply cannot make.
Of course, what's nice for the Xbox fan is that the reverse *isn't* true. There's really nothing the PS4 can do that the X1 can't do nearly identically. There's no experience it offers that X1 cannot replicate.
As for the power gains by this optimization, it's likely going to be something great for PS fans, but like the DX12 hype - we should probably keep expectations in check.
MODS: Sorry, just saw your posts. Feel free to delete, or move (if there is another thread about the vs. talk)
Infamous looks better than Ryse imo.
Jesters comment was a bit overstated. But X1 is more of a multimedia focused games machine. If all of those features played a role in the weaker specs is something that can't really be answered imo. One of the machines was going to be more powerful no matter what.
What if Microsoft had put a better GPU in the X1 than what's in the PS4? Would that suddenly make the PS4 a non gaming centric machine? Of course not. Is the Wii U not gaming focused? It's more underpowered than both. So to me it's a silly argument to say X1 isn't a gaming machine just because Sony overshot them.
Jesters comment was a bit overstated. But X1 is more of a multimedia focused games machine. If all of those features played a role in the weaker specs is something that can't really be answered imo. One of the machines was going to be more powerful no matter what.
What if Microsoft had put a better GPU in the X1 than what's in the PS4? Would that suddenly make the PS4 a non gaming centric machine? Of course not. Is the Wii U not gaming focused? It's more underpowered than both. So to me it's a silly argument to say X1 isn't a gaming machine just because Sony overshot them.
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Amusing, isn't it when there's fanciful rumors of astonishing boosts in power. Without a single shred of factual evidence to back them up, no less. It's s-o-o-o-o on the other foot this time. You just gotta love it!
Pretty much see this as an ongoing basis throughout this gen. Software optimizations will be advancing over time for both consoles but the hardware gap will remain the same.
Might want to be careful about what you wish for. If Mods start doing that your time here may very well would be cut short
Nah, I was right the first time. Eliminating all the "vs" talk just killed the conversation, and it wasn't fair to the people who made substantive contributions. It's clear that people want to talk about this subject from the angle of the X1/DX12 discussion, which is understandable, and I'm going to let them.
Subject open to X1, "vs" talk, DX12, whatever.
Subject open to X1, "vs" talk, DX12, whatever.
lol @ [user]Andy[/user]. Gamers only care if they can compare and champion their plastic over the other.
Maybe the premise is false, but who's fault is that ? This is the kind of picture MS has painted for themselves. MS has mired themselves in crap, and it will be a long road before they dig their way out.
Maybe the premise is false, but who's fault is that ? This is the kind of picture MS has painted for themselves. MS has mired themselves in crap, and it will be a long road before they dig their way out.
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