The Naughty Dog Agenda

Spiritech said:
I'm curious as to when given a gender option, how many men choose to play as a women and women play as men. I played ME as both and depending on the game I will decide based on theme or who is more pleasant to look at or has the better outfits(my inner Bellybama).
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I don't know any data on that. I'd be curious, too.

I have sometimes played as a woman, both for the reason Hedon mentioned (more pleasant to look at) and also because part of what appeals to me about games is the chance to experience something different than my normal life. But lately, I've become more aware of how feminized our culture is and how badly men have been faring, in part because of feminist/SJW dogma. Choosing to play as a woman reminds me of that now, and so I'm not feeling like it anymore.

Another reason is just realism. In a game like AC Odyssey, which is supposed to be somewhat historically accurate, I can't get into the idea of a female Spartan warrior. Doesn't seem realistic to me.
 
Andy said:
I don't know any data on that. I'd be curious, too.

I have sometimes played as a woman, both for the reason Hedon mentioned (more pleasant to look at) and also because part of what appeals to me about games is the chance to experience something different than my normal life. But lately, I've become more aware of how feminized our culture is and how badly men have been faring, in part because of feminist/SJW dogma. Choosing to play as a woman reminds me of that now, and so I'm not feeling like it anymore.

Another reason is just realism. In a game like AC Odyssey, which is supposed to be somewhat historically accurate, I can't get into the idea of a female Spartan warrior. Doesn't seem realistic to me.
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Its not like the male characters would survive any of the stuff you go through in the games anyway. You have to suspend disbelieve either way so wouldn't bother me to suspend a little more.
 
yankeessuck said:
Its not like the male characters would survive any of the stuff you go through in the games anyway. You have to suspend disbelieve either way so wouldn't bother me to suspend a little more.
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Ok, that's fine, and if it works for you, go for it, and tell us how it goes. For me, it's important that I feel immersed as the main character, and if there is something about the main character that keeps reminding me it's not real and it's just a game, then that works against immersion. To take a more extreme example, if I had the option of playing as an 8 year old boy Spartan warrior, I wouldn't choose it, because seeing that character on screen would continually pull me out of the game. So there's a line for me where if something is unrealistic about the main character, it disrupts my ability to feel connected/immersed in the game. For me, playing as a woman in this particular game is over that line. It would interfere with my immersion.

Plus, there are romances, and I don't want to be hitting up the dudes.
 
Andy said:
Ok, that's fine, and if it works for you, go for it, and tell us how it goes. For me, it's important that I feel immersed as the main character, and if there is something about the main character that keeps reminding me it's not real and it's just a game, then that works against immersion. To take a more extreme example, if I had the option of playing as an 8 year old boy Spartan warrior, I wouldn't choose it, because seeing that character on screen would continually pull me out of the game. So there's a line for me where if something is unrealistic about the main character, it disrupts my ability to feel connected/immersed in the game. For me, playing as a woman in this particular game is over that line. It would interfere with my immersion.

Plus, there are romances, and I don't want to be hitting up the dudes.
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Yeah but think of the girl on girl action you will miss out on
 
I wouldn't mind some Lara Croft on Cortana action.........
 
yankeessuck said:
Yeah but think of the girl on girl action you will miss out on
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I'm fine missing out on it :) lol

I like how they are handling AC, people have the choice to be male or female and to romance who they want, for this kind of game it totally works. For a game like TLOU2 which is far more story driven and the characters are a much bigger emotional investment than the one off AC characters it wouldn't work IMO.
 
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Spiritech said:
I found evil Fem Shep especially enjoyable.
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Are you talking about Andromeda? I could see picking the girl just to laugh at how silly she looked, god the faces were awful in that game, even after the updates they still look bad.
 
JinCA said:
Are you talking about Andromeda? I could see picking the girl just to laugh at how silly she looked, god the faces were awful in that game, even after the updates they still look bad.
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Na the OG ME trilogy. I picked the Male character in Andromeda cuz yea that character model was awkward.
 
The Naughty Dog Agenda: Be the best in the world at what you do.

Got em.

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Postscript to some of what I said earlier... I'm going to make my second home at GAF. I've been reading and posting there for the past several days, and I really like the changes. Everything that made GAF toxic has moved to Resetera, and it's GAF that has had the true reset. It's a much more sane and enjoyable environment over there, without the identity politics and the restrictions on opinions and speech. It's also much smaller, so you can actually have conversations. They've instituted notifications, too, which is nice.

I used to think social justice warriors were just a stupid but basically harmless bunch of cupcakes who got their feelings hurt too easily. That's not it at all. I've been watching and reading a lot lately, and I've come to see them as an embodiment of a very dangerous and pathological ideology which is really damaging our country. I still find them funny, because they're so idiotic, but I'm not going to be a part of a forum that is run by them.
 
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yankeessuck said:
Trumper forum vs SJW forum

I'll pass on both
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The difference is that no one is getting banned at GAF for being anti-Trump. They certainly got banned in the past for being pro-Trump. In fact, EvilLore has talked about how people were banned by the hundreds for "for *not being angry enough* about the election." How's that for moderator bias?
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/neogaf-ban-review-justice-project-off-topic-edition.1463407/

He reviewed those banned accounts, and many have returned. So it's a more equal balance now, much more representative, rather than the left wing echo chamber it was before. It probably leans pro-Trump, perhaps because of the energy of the people who were banned, returning. But there are plenty of anti-Trump people there. I see anti-Trump stuff all the time. The issue is, no one gets banned for their political opinion.

Anyhow, I'm not going to choose a forum based on the whether the OT membership leans pro-Trump or anti-Trump. I'm not that invested in that issue, and I don't generally read Trump threads, because they aren't very illuminating.

To me what matters is the whether the moderation staff has a socio-political ideology which they enforce by banning people who step out of line. That's the issue I'm concerned about. That was true of the old GAF, and it's now true of Resetera. It's no longer true of the new GAF.
 
Andy said:
The difference is that no one is getting banned at GAF for being anti-Trump. They certainly got banned in the past for being pro-Trump. In fact, EvilLore has talked about how people were banned by the hundreds for "for *not being angry enough* about the election." How's that for moderator bias?
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/neogaf-ban-review-justice-project-off-topic-edition.1463407/

He reviewed those banned accounts, and many have returned. So it's a more equal balance now, much more representative, rather than the left wing echo chamber it was before. It probably leans pro-Trump, perhaps because of the energy of the people who were banned, returning. But there are plenty of anti-Trump people there. I see anti-Trump stuff all the time. The issue is, no one gets banned for their political opinion.

Anyhow, I'm not going to choose a forum based on the whether the OT membership leans pro-Trump or anti-Trump. I'm not that invested in that issue, and I don't generally read Trump threads, because they aren't very illuminating.

To me what matters is the whether the moderation staff has a socio-political ideology which they enforce by banning people who step out of line. That's the issue I'm concerned about. That was true of the old GAF, and it's now true of Resetera. It's no longer true of the new GAF.
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He is just figuring out people were banned for no reason after 2 years? The change is only there because they lost so many members. If it grew to what it used to be the moderation would go back to normal. Evilore is/was the problem. The election didn't kill GAF like he is trying to pretend. He did.

Attempts at transparency don't mean much if you are lying.
 
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Well, the buck stops there, so what happened is his fault -- although I'd also blame the #metoo hysteria and the moderators. He has said as much in multiple threads -- that he f*cked up. He's not pretending the election killed GAF. I've seen him take responsibility and kick himself for his negligence several times. I'm not privvy to the behind-the-scenes machinations, so I don't know what happened behind the curtain, none of us do, really. I'm reserving judgment. But I'm not interested in defending EvilLore.

Actually, though, one of the reasons I have confidence that things have changed -- apart from just observation -- is that EvilLore was a target of the PC/progressive/SJW culture he allowed to develop. He has experienced for himself, firsthand, how toxic, reactive, hysterical, and destructive that sort of ideology is, in practice. There was a poetic irony in him being burned at the stake by the same culture he allowed to develop. But he was damaged, badly, in a way none of us have been. And because of that (whether you think it was deserved or not), I don't think he'll go anywhere near supporting that sort of repressive environment again.
 
Andy said:
Well, the buck stops there, so what happened is his fault -- although I'd also blame the #metoo hysteria and the moderators. He has said as much in multiple threads -- that he f*cked up. He's not pretending the election killed GAF. I've seen him take responsibility and kick himself for his negligence several times. I'm not privvy to the behind-the-scenes machinations, so I don't know what happened behind the curtain, none of us do, really. I'm reserving judgment. But I'm not interested in defending EvilLore.

Actually, though, one of the reasons I have confidence that things have changed -- apart from just observation -- is that EvilLore was a target of the PC/progressive/SJW culture he allowed to develop. He has experienced for himself, firsthand, how toxic, reactive, hysterical, and destructive that sort of ideology is, in practice. There was a poetic irony in him being burned at the stake by the same culture he allowed to develop. But he was damaged, badly, in a way none of us have been. And because of that (whether you think it was deserved or not), I don't think he'll go anywhere near supporting that sort of repressive environment again.
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He would have survived it if he was up front and honest. Instead he banned and censored any discussion of what he did.

The revenge porn stuff it what really makes him a creep anyway more so that what brought it on.
 
yankeessuck said:
He would have survived it if he was up front and honest. Instead he banned and censored any discussion of what he did.

The revenge porn stuff it what really makes him a creep anyway more so that what brought it on.
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Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure anyone could have handled that particular confluence of events smoothly. He had the #metoo hysteria, which was just hitting its peak culturally (believe women, no investigation, no due process, no sense of proportion), lingering resentment among GAF and ex-GAF users about the moderation policies and atmosphere, plus a moderation staff and community so thoroughly steeped in SJW/feminist/PC ideology that it was all but inevitable that GAF was going to go up in a massive fireball. He could've handled it better, no doubt. He knows that. He admits he f*cked up.

But again, I'm not here to defend EvilLore. You've clearly got your mind made up about him and GAF, and that's fine -- stay where you feel comfortable. I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you about it, and my point isn't directed at you.


I'm speaking to anyone who's interested in a non-SJW/PC-dominated environment. GAF has changed. It is now a much more open, free-wheeling place, where you can say what you think without worrying about getting censored, mobbed, or banned.

Also, Xbox owners are now over-represented there (compared to the general population), not under-represented as before. Ratio of PS4 to Xbox owners is 1.5 to 1 (vs. 2 to 1 in general pop.). It was kind of cool, I ran into a guy who recognized me from TXB.
 
Andy said:
Yeah, maybe. I'm not sure anyone could have handled that particular confluence of events smoothly. He had the #metoo hysteria, which was just hitting its peak culturally (believe women, no investigation, no due process, no sense of proportion), lingering resentment among GAF and ex-GAF users about the moderation policies and atmosphere, plus a moderation staff and community so thoroughly steeped in SJW/feminist/PC ideology that it was all but inevitable that GAF was going to go up in a massive fireball. He could've handled it better, no doubt. He knows that. He admits he f*cked up.

But again, I'm not here to defend EvilLore. You've clearly got your mind made up about him and GAF, and that's fine -- stay where you feel comfortable. I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you about it, and my point isn't directed at you.


I'm speaking to anyone who's interested in a non-SJW/PC-dominated environment. GAF has changed. It is now a much more open, free-wheeling place, where you can say what you think without worrying about getting censored, mobbed, or banned.

Also, Xbox owners are now over-represented there (compared to the general population), not under-represented as before. Ratio of PS4 to Xbox owners is 1.5 to 1 (vs. 2 to 1 in general pop.). It was kind of cool, I ran into a guy who recognized me from TXB.
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Well I didn't even know we were having an argument at all.

But I am staying where I am comfortable. Here.
 
yankeessuck said:
Well I didn't even know we were having an argument at all.

But I am staying where I am comfortable. Here.
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We weren't, but we could've been, and I wanted to avoid that. Not worth it.

I'm comfortable here, too, but I've always had a secondary forum. I can't support Resetera anymore, so I was happy to find GAF reformed. GAF was always my secondary, so that feels right, and the changes are refreshing. Lots of thoughtful posts from a variety of diverse perspectives, including on the topic of this thread (ND Agenda).

It's interesting, watching them try to rebuild. Seems to be going okay so far. Still small, but growing. Reading their thread about Resetera is an eye-opener. Lots of people laughing about people being banned for stupid sh*t. "Avatar shaming" was one the reasons I remember being cited recently. lol.

I should probably move these posts to the GAF thread, but I don't care.
 
Andy said:
Well, the buck stops there, so what happened is his fault -- although I'd also blame the #metoo hysteria and the moderators. He has said as much in multiple threads -- that he f*cked up. He's not pretending the election killed GAF. I've seen him take responsibility and kick himself for his negligence several times. I'm not privvy to the behind-the-scenes machinations, so I don't know what happened behind the curtain, none of us do, really. I'm reserving judgment. But I'm not interested in defending EvilLore.

Actually, though, one of the reasons I have confidence that things have changed -- apart from just observation -- is that EvilLore was a target of the PC/progressive/SJW culture he allowed to develop. He has experienced for himself, firsthand, how toxic, reactive, hysterical, and destructive that sort of ideology is, in practice. There was a poetic irony in him being burned at the stake by the same culture he allowed to develop. But he was damaged, badly, in a way none of us have been. And because of that (whether you think it was deserved or not), I don't think he'll go anywhere near supporting that sort of repressive environment again.
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Dude, this entire post is icky.

I've never been a member of either Reset or GAF, so I'm not really qualified to comment about most of that. But I also loathe political correctness.

But it sounds like you're using some good ol' Just-World Fallacy logic to simultaneously justify a dude being punished, your hatred for progressiveness, and then fostering a community that would then protect others from what he experienced?

I've no idea the history of GAF, and I'm pretty sure there would be hundreds of people that were banned on both sides of the fence, maybe more askew to the progressive side, but was that such a bad thing considering the sorry state that the entire gaming industry was in?

I know I would have been banned 20x over, but those forums were literally the biggest thing in a gaming community that encouraged women to have a voice.

If a few hundred dudes getting banned for saying offensive s*** is the cost, while producing a safe environment for others without the creepy/stalky/rapey comments, isn't that fair? Not only that, it encouraged women work in the industry to speak out and men learnt to amplify those victims voices, without taking up space of their own. Most of the time, I think the biggest issue that people have with #metoo, is that it isn't about them, and they can't twist the topic around to be self serving.

Put a girl friend on to talk during a game of Fortnight, and see what is said to her within the first 20 minutes.

You comment about #metoo 'hysteria', when it was literally victims of direct and diffused abuse, makes it sound as if their troubles were inconvenient for you.

I'm glad #metoo happened. I'm sorry that you feel oppressed because other people felt brave enough to have 5 minutes to speak.

Eh, it's all good.
 
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Bellybama said:
But it sounds like you're using some good ol' Just-World Fallacy logic to simultaneously justify a dude being punished, your hatred for progressiveness, and then fostering a community that would then protect others from what he experienced?
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Sounds like you're making a lot of false assumptions.

I've no idea the history of GAF, and I'm pretty sure there would be hundreds of people that were banned on both sides of the fence, maybe more askew to the progressive side, but was that such a bad thing considering the sorry state that the entire gaming industry was in?
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That's wrong. They overwhelmingly banned a particular type of speech and a certain sort of opinion. It was not even remotely balanced. And no, it's not okay because the gaming industry has problems. You don't solve a problem by shutting down discussion of the problem.

If a few hundred dudes getting banned for saying offensive s*** is the cost, while producing a safe environment for others without the creepy/stalky/rapey comments, isn't that fair? Not only that, it encouraged women work in the industry to speak out and men learnt to amplify those victims voices, without taking up space of their own.
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No, I don't think it's right to censor opinions you don't like, just because they make you uncomfortable. And no, it's not okay to ban hundreds of people because you don't like their opinions or the way they phrase things, just because a couple of truly awful people will get caught in the net. That's very poor idea of justice. It's similar to saying we should put 100 people in jail because maybe a couple of them are guilty.

But this is how people think now -- give me a safe space where I won't hear anything that might hurt my feelings. If you go against that, you're a racist, or a sexist, or a homophobe, or whatever.

To me, it's not about the gaming industry. It's about the ability to speak freely and say what you think. Free speech is instantiated in our constitution; it's really the cornerstone of our democracy. People died for it. And now it's being eaten away by this sort of PC/SJW/regressive thinking.

I don't know what "rapey" means. If you want to provide specifics, I can answer, but these terms are vague and pretty useless, especially in an age when terms like "sexual assault" can mean anything from actual rape to "attempted forced kissing," whatever that means.

And I don't see any evidence that this SJW/PC suppression of speech and opinion has done anything to improve the lives of women. I think it's the opposite.
 
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Nobody is losing their constitutional free speech because Resetera is banning people
 
People want free speech and a free society, but they never, ever want to be offended either. They lash out when they don't realize how they can't have what they want.

That means that even some awful people get to speak too. That's the cost of free speech.
 
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There was "hysteria" around me too, that's not to say people who came forward with legitimate claims were out of line but when you have the news covering someone talking about a bad date with a comedian as if it has anything to do with sexual harassment or when everyone who is accused loses their job and is not even given a chance to defend themselves that's a problem. I know it's a tricky subject because often times there is no "evidence" but that doesn't mean you can just accept every claim as fact and punish someone by taking away their livelihood without a chance to give their side of the story if indeed there is one to begin with.
 
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