Official Thread XBOX Hardware

My Current Console Is....


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We've gotten really wrangled in this discussion. Just to clear up where I'm coming from:
  • The entire cost of a company like WB is a capital expenditure. If the cost was 4 billion, that 4 billion would not hit the Xbox division's balance sheet in 2020 or 2021 (whenever hypothetical deal was finalized). A depreciation expense would be assigned to it over it's useful life offset by whatever revenue it was bringing in.
  • Taking losses on consoles would be completely different. Every console sold at a loss hits the balance sheet during the year it was sold.
So being super aggressive has nothing to do with being reckless or relying on prayers. They run big data predictive analytics. They have a business plan. Every variable can change the trend. Let's say for example, the following is what their predictive analytics say for the next 5 years for Xbox if they made no changes (using bulls*** easy numbers):
Operating ExpensesRevenueExpected Profit or Losses
1 bil500K- 500K
1.2 bil800K- 200K
1.4 bil1 bil-400K
1.6 bil2 bil+400K
1.8 bil4 bil2.2 bil

Any major variable (a strategic capital expenditure or taking high losses on consoles for a couple years) will change your predictive trend line. When you have a business plan like this, a loss in a given year is not automatically a bad thing. If the expected losses for 2020 were 500K but due subscription revenue out-pacing projections their actual losses were 400K, that's a good year for Spencer and Xbox. Yes a loss year is a good year. Conversely, if 5 years from now Xbox is generating 1 billion in profit when their original projections were 2.2 billion, that's a bad year. At a high level, if Microsoft missed projections, stock would fall even if the actual number was massive profits. Some people might lose jobs. If a start up company was projecting massive losses in a given year however the actual losses were lower than projected, the stock would go up and leadership praised even though the company is still losing money.

I believe Xbox is being treated like a start up company playing with a big boy trend line. That makes major billion dollar purchases viable. They will likely run losses for the next few years that are already baked into their business plan. As long as their growth and trendline looks like it's on track, then it's all good.

I could be wrong. Maybe Nadella sat Xbox at the big boy table and kept them around because he thinks they're cute. Maybe he likes what it does for Microsoft's image. I doubt that.
The studio thing isn't what i'm talking about.

Lets say PS5 is $500 and MS undercuts them at $400 at $200 loss per console. That is 4 billion lost on the first 20 million sold. What is the point? At best you only increased adoption rate, not overall userbase. So it is a pointless loss to incur. That is my point.

The extra first party games added to GP over the first year will do more for the subs than the ridiculous pricing.

Why not give it away for free and have 200 million userbase quickly. Subs will sky rocket. 100 mil subs at 10 bucks = 12 billion yearly. Only got to wait 10 yearrs to recoup the 120 billion lost on Hardware.
 
The studio thing isn't what i'm talking about.

Lets say PS5 is $500 and MS undercuts them at $400 at $200 loss per console. That is 4 billion lost on the first 20 million sold. What is the point? At best you only increased adoption rate, not overall userbase. So it is a pointless loss to incur. That is my point.

The extra first party games added to GP over the first year will do more for the subs than the ridiculous pricing.

Why not give it away for free and have 200 million userbase quickly. Subs will sky rocket. 100 mil subs at 10 bucks = 12 billion yearly. Only got to wait 10 yearrs to recoup the 120 billion lost on Hardware.

I'm not even arguing that will happen. I don't believe those rumors at all and lean towards agreeing with you and Froz on this. I'd also selfishly prefer all that losses go towards content rather than console subsidizing. So we're in the same boat.

Where I'm playing Devils Advocate is telling you why it could happen. None of these things exist in a vacuum. There's ripple effects. Think of a butterfly effect. Changing one variable today can lead to an entirely different timeline. If increasing losses increases the timeline for profits, all bets are out the window.

What is the value of a faster adoption rate? Mindshare. It's like adding a multiplier to your advertising in addition to expanding customer base. Overall mindshare due to console adoption could indirectly effect adoption of streaming and PC. It could lead to early partnerships that wouldn't otherwise exist. You think Activision partners with Xbox on the 360 and helps continue the momentum if it was Xbox that fell on its face out the gate? Now translate that to Game Pass. There's so many moving parts. Being first to hitting critical mass in mindshare isn't the only thing that matters....but it's really important.

...and i apologize. When we talk about this stuff, I start going into Doc from Back to the Future mode. I manage in data and analytics. I get annoyed by how even execs sometimes can't understand how its not 1+1=2 just because was yesterday. It's way more complicated.
 
I'm not even arguing that will happen. I don't believe those rumors at all and lean towards agreeing with you and Froz on this. I'd also selfishly prefer all that losses go towards content rather than console subsidizing. So we're in the same boat.

Where I'm playing Devils Advocate is telling you why it could happen. None of these things exist in a vacuum. There's ripple effects. Think of a butterfly effect. Changing one variable today can lead to an entirely different timeline. If increasing losses increases the timeline for profits, all bets are out the window.

What is the value of a faster adoption rate? Mindshare. It's like adding a multiplier to your advertising in addition to expanding customer base. Overall mindshare due to console adoption could indirectly effect adoption of streaming and PC. It could lead to early partnerships that wouldn't otherwise exist. You think Activision partners with Xbox on the 360 and helps continue the momentum if it was Xbox that fell on its face out the gate? Now translate that to Game Pass. There's so many moving parts. Being first to hitting critical mass in mindshare isn't the only thing that matters....but it's really important.

...and i apologize. When we talk about this stuff, I start going into Doc from Back to the Future mode. I manage in data and analytics. I get annoyed by how even execs sometimes can't understand how its not 1+1=2 just because was yesterday. It's way more complicated.
Mindshare would increaase over time any way. I would also argue that building a more diverse and robust service would serve equally, if not better.Would also serve them better at tnot losing subs to commpeting services.
 
Mindshare would increaase over time any way. I would also argue that building a more diverse and robust service would serve equally, if not better.Would also serve them better at tnot losing subs to commpeting services.

Over time, yes. However time is a critical factor in any business especially when up against so many factors.

Of course the actual quality of their service is the most important thing. This is where all those moving parts doesn't make it a simple equation. It's not x dollars lost on console sales means x dollars not invested in content. Not automatically. You could argue growing the base faster allows them to actually increase investment in content more.

All console sales are not equal. A console sold to a customer in 2020 is worth more than a console sold in 2023 to new members of your ecosystem. A new customer who spends an average of $10 a month will spend $360 in 3 years. So even if you took a $150 loss one console in year 1, it was worth it vs a customer who buys Xbox in 2023 at breakeven. Early adopters also tend to influence the market. They usually spend more monthly than late adopters. Price is how you can add new customers, not just transition existing ones. With all the competing options coming due to technology, someone waiting for a price drop may change their mind.
 
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Over time, yes. However time is a critical factor in any business especially when up against so many factors.

Of course the actual quality of their service is the most important thing. This is where all those moving parts doesn't make it a simple equation. It's not x dollars lost on console sales means x dollars not invested in content. Not automatically. You could argue growing the base faster allows them to actually increase investment in content more.

All console sales are not equal. A console sold to a customer in 2020 is worth more than a console sold in 2023 to new members of your ecosystem. A new customer who spends an average of $10 a month will spend $360 in 3 years. So even if you took a $150 loss one console in year 1, it was worth it vs a customer who buys Xbox in 2023 at breakeven. Early adopters also tend to influence the market. They usually spend more monthly than late adopters. Price is how you can add new customers, not just transition existing ones. With all the competing options coming due to technology, someone waiting for a price drop may change their mind.
How they manage their messaging, I think, will have greater impact that out the gate sales simply because enthusiasts will keep both consoles sold out past the new year.
 
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How they manage their messaging, I think, will have greater impact that out the gate sales simply because enthusiasts will keep both consoles sold out past the new year.

For sure. Messaging/marketing always critical. Messaging in particular is the one opportunity they consistently struggle with. They leave a lot of hanging curve balls for the competition to hit.
 
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Over time, yes. However time is a critical factor in any business especially when up against so many factors.

Of course the actual quality of their service is the most important thing. This is where all those moving parts doesn't make it a simple equation. It's not x dollars lost on console sales means x dollars not invested in content. Not automatically. You could argue growing the base faster allows them to actually increase investment in content more.

All console sales are not equal. A console sold to a customer in 2020 is worth more than a console sold in 2023 to new members of your ecosystem. A new customer who spends an average of $10 a month will spend $360 in 3 years. So even if you took a $150 loss one console in year 1, it was worth it vs a customer who buys Xbox in 2023 at breakeven. Early adopters also tend to influence the market. They usually spend more monthly than late adopters. Price is how you can add new customers, not just transition existing ones. With all the competing options coming due to technology, someone waiting for a price drop may change their mind.
The problem here is all the increased adoption rrate does it move your consumer base from from X1 to XSX. There for your subs don't really rise and we once again end up at those losses being very ineffectual.

If you have 15 million subs out of your 60 mil userbase, it would be more beneficial to grow the service not the hardware adoption rate. which is likely why MS is so firm on cross gen. It also makes littles sense to go so hard on hardware adoption rates when you plan to take the service mobile.
 
The problem here is all the increased adoption rrate does it move your consumer base from from X1 to XSX. There for your subs don't really rise and we once again end up at those losses being very ineffectual.

If you have 15 million subs out of your 60 mil userbase, it would be more beneficial to grow the service not the hardware adoption rate. which is likely why MS is so firm on cross gen. It also makes littles sense to go so hard on hardware adoption rates when you plan to take the service mobile.

I agree with that. Simply moving from one gen to another might help lock them in but on the Xbox side, Game Pass does more to lock in than plastic. I agree Microsoft isn't as concerned with where you play.

The conundrum is that new generations are often the best opportunity to try siphoning the competitors base. In Microsofts case, there's a lot of people who used to be Halo, Fable, Gears or Forza fans who left the ecosystem this gen. If you create enough energy around the new system, some of them will come back. I don't know how much "some of them" is or whether they're worth taking a loss on people already committed to Xbox. Also don't know how many new potential console owners are out there based on consumers getting older.

My predictions right now are $300 and $500 next gen systems. No WB...however the next fiscal year for Microsoft will result in another aggressive 1st party growth spurt.

I think our predictions are probably similar. All that other stuff I wrote was just to say nothing is off the table.
 
I agree with that. Simply moving from one gen to another might help lock them in but on the Xbox side, Game Pass does more to lock in than plastic. I agree Microsoft isn't as concerned with where you play.

The conundrum is that new generations are often the best opportunity to try siphoning the competitors base. In Microsofts case, there's a lot of people who used to be Halo, Fable, Gears or Forza fans who left the ecosystem this gen. If you create enough energy around the new system, some of them will come back. I don't know how much "some of them" is or whether they're worth taking a loss on people already committed to Xbox. Also don't know how many new potential console owners are out there based on consumers getting older.

My predictions right now are $300 and $500 next gen systems. No WB...however the next fiscal year for Microsoft will result in another aggressive 1st party growth spurt.

I think our predictions are probably similar. All that other stuff I wrote was just to say nothing is off the table.
I agree it is a great opportunity to bring in new consumers.

As for bringing back lost consumers, it would depend if the reason they left is fixed. People they lost for hardware reasons would be easier to entice back. People they lost due to first party reasons might stay gone if rumours are true.

The WB purchase seems too expensive.

$300 and $500 sounds more reasonable.

I do wonder though.In this current covid era and with economies being in the toilet, if that might spur a lower than expected pricepoint.
 
I agree with that. Simply moving from one gen to another might help lock them in but on the Xbox side, Game Pass does more to lock in than plastic. I agree Microsoft isn't as concerned with where you play.

The conundrum is that new generations are often the best opportunity to try siphoning the competitors base. In Microsofts case, there's a lot of people who used to be Halo, Fable, Gears or Forza fans who left the ecosystem this gen. If you create enough energy around the new system, some of them will come back. I don't know how much "some of them" is or whether they're worth taking a loss on people already committed to Xbox. Also don't know how many new potential console owners are out there based on consumers getting older.

My predictions right now are $300 and $500 next gen systems. No WB...however the next fiscal year for Microsoft will result in another aggressive 1st party growth spurt.

I think our predictions are probably similar. All that other stuff I wrote was just to say nothing is off the table.

Agreed. The beginnings of generations set the tone, create buzz, and have a ripple effect, especially now with so much Internet/social media influence. The debut of the PS 3 and the X1 both systems for basically their entire generation (the X1 more so), while the 360 and PS 4 both flourished.

MS needs to be aggressive immediately this upcoming gen, which is why the 7/23 event has to be huge. They’ve been more bullish and confident on specs, bought a bunch of studios...now they have to show great games. It’s a marathon, and Sony and Nintendo will do just fine no matter what.

Just like any longer race, there are times to pace yourself, and times to make aggressive moves. If MS wants any significant jump in their user base for the long term, it has to be between now and the XSX launch IMO.
 
We've gotten really wrangled in this discussion. Just to clear up where I'm coming from:
  • The entire cost of a company like WB is a capital expenditure. If the cost was 4 billion, that 4 billion would not hit the Xbox division's balance sheet in 2020 or 2021 (whenever hypothetical deal was finalized). A depreciation expense would be assigned to it over it's useful life offset by whatever revenue it was bringing in.
  • Taking losses on consoles would be completely different. Every console sold at a loss hits the balance sheet during the year it was sold.
So being super aggressive has nothing to do with being reckless or relying on prayers. They run big data predictive analytics. They have a business plan. Every variable can change the trend. Let's say for example, the following is what their predictive analytics say for the next 5 years for Xbox if they made no changes (using bulls*** easy numbers):
Operating ExpensesRevenueExpected Profit or Losses
1 bil500K- 500K
1.2 bil800K- 200K
1.4 bil1 bil-400K
1.6 bil2 bil+400K
1.8 bil4 bil2.2 bil

Any major variable (a strategic capital expenditure or taking high losses on consoles for a couple years) will change your predictive trend line. When you have a business plan like this, a loss in a given year is not automatically a bad thing. If the expected losses for 2020 were 500K but due subscription revenue out-pacing projections their actual losses were 400K, that's a good year for Spencer and Xbox. Yes a loss year is a good year. Conversely, if 5 years from now Xbox is generating 1 billion in profit when their original projections were 2.2 billion, that's a bad year. At a high level, if Microsoft missed projections, stock would fall even if the actual number was massive profits. Some people might lose jobs. If a start up company was projecting massive losses in a given year however the actual losses were lower than projected, the stock would go up and leadership praised even though the company is still losing money.

I believe Xbox is being treated like a start up company playing with a big boy trend line. That makes major billion dollar purchases viable. They will likely run losses for the next few years that are already baked into their business plan. As long as their growth and trendline looks like it's on track, then it's all good.

I could be wrong. Maybe Nadella sat Xbox at the big boy table and kept them around because he thinks they're cute. Maybe he likes what it does for Microsoft's image. I doubt that.
Line 2 in the table is -400k
 
Agreed. The beginnings of generations set the tone, create buzz, and have a ripple effect, especially now with so much Internet/social media influence. The debut of the PS 3 and the X1 both systems for basically their entire generation (the X1 more so), while the 360 and PS 4 both flourished.

MS needs to be aggressive immediately this upcoming gen, which is why the 7/23 event has to be huge. They’ve been more bullish and confident on specs, bought a bunch of studios...now they have to show great games. It’s a marathon, and Sony and Nintendo will do just fine no matter what.

Just like any longer race, there are times to pace yourself, and times to make aggressive moves. If MS wants any significant jump in their user base for the long term, it has to be between now and the XSX launch IMO.

Yeah I'm expecting them to go hard this year. If there are 50/50 moves, now's the time to go for those and show your hand while the market is looking. Many gamers never paid attention to Xbox after 2013. There's a segment that only crawl out of their bubble to see what else is going on in the entire gaming world once a generation. Even if you don't get them to leave their current preferred ecosystem, you want to plant seeds now because there will be more opportunities for gamers to be in multiple ecosystems next gen.

On a side note, seems to be a lot more smoke around WB the past couple days. I got theories that they're using it to create more urgency with other potential aquisitions but who knows. I'm happy to be wrong.
 
Let me guess, XSX price and preorders and then it doesn’t actually happen?
 
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