Official Thread XBOX Hardware

My Current Console Is....

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...and here we wanted to ask Jason Ronald about the increasingly celebrated Xbox Velocity Architecture. Ronald first emphasized that "first of all, the philosophy of Xbox architecture is much more than the SSD itself."

Above is one more component: the so-called Sampler Feedback for Streaming (SFS), which some developers describe as a turning point when streaming the world we're immersed in and representing a higher visual level. As Ronald pointed out, this technology "allows us to load textures and causes the SSD to "act as a physical memory multiplier that adds to the memory that the machine itself has".

Comparisons with the performance of the PS5's SSD seemed to disadvantage the Xbox Series X: based on those numbers, the transfer rates of the Sony console storage system will basically double those achieved in Microsoft's, but for Ronald the story was different. "Things go beyond the numbers we can or can't share."

Again, let's just assume the PS5 is doing something similar in terms of SFS in addition to having faster I/O. That 100GB of data will load faster than streaming directly from the SSD. Memory is faster than the SSD. It's a next gen technique not available with mechanical drives in addition to the much faster I/O speeds which eliminates all kinds of bottlenecks. We're so far past where we were this gen for moving data relative to the advance in compute. If games are never I/O bound on the Series X as a result, an even faster SSD wouldn't result in additional benefits outside of shorter traditional load times.
 
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Nervusbreakdown said:
No matter how great the SSD can do, The rest of the hardware is still fixed, no matter what.

9.0-10 tf is not going to transform into 12tf because of the SDD. it will just perform just really, really, good on that spec only.

MS running 12 tf with their amazing SDD drive and it will run really, really, good with that Spec.

I think people will be disappointed if they think that the PS5 is going to outperform the Xbox series x.
Click to expand...
It will outperform in some areas. The talk was about SSDs, and it is undeniable the PS5 has a big advantage there. The problem is they have done nothing to show why that matters.

At the end of the day, the XSX SSD will do everything the PS5 can, just a little slower.
 
OneBadMutha said:
...and here we wanted to ask Jason Ronald about the increasingly celebrated Xbox Velocity Architecture. Ronald first emphasized that "first of all, the philosophy of Xbox architecture is much more than the SSD itself."

Above is one more component: the so-called Sampler Feedback for Streaming (SFS), which some developers describe as a turning point when streaming the world we're immersed in and representing a higher visual level. As Ronald pointed out, this technology "allows us to load textures and causes the SSD to "act as a physical memory multiplier that adds to the memory that the machine itself has".

Comparisons with the performance of the PS5's SSD seemed to disadvantage the Xbox Series X: based on those numbers, the transfer rates of the Sony console storage system will basically double those achieved in Microsoft's, but for Ronald the story was different. "Things go beyond the numbers we can or can't share."

Again, let's just assume the PS5 is doing something similar in terms of SFS in addition to having faster I/O. That 100GB of data will load faster than streaming directly from the SSD. Memory is faster than the SSD. It's a next gen technique not available with mechanical drives in addition to the much faster I/O speeds which eliminates all kinds of bottlenecks. We're so far past where we were this gen for moving data relative to the advance in compute. If games are never I/O bound on the Series X as a result, an even faster SSD wouldn't result in additional benefits outside of shorter traditional load times.
Click to expand...
The problem I have with this is the wording used. "all kind of bottlenecks," "if." Sounds more theoretical than an actual fact of reality.
 
menace-uk- said:
The problem I have with this is the wording used. "all kind of bottlenecks," "if." Sounds more theoretical than an actual fact of reality.
Click to expand...

Forgive the wording. Improving I/O bottlenecks and reducing need for decompression frees up both game design and CPU.
 
menace-uk- said:
Is the virtual ram streamed? Virtual ram is just a holding place for data and is instantly available.
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No, the word stream (wasn't even spelled correctly) slipped in there. Yes, the RAM data should be instantly available from the SSD, in theory. However, I'm talking about if there's an advantage from a faster SSD to the whole of the graphics pipeline of data being processed at any given time, and the difference between their methods of efficiency vs bottlenecks within that pipeline. What are the real-world differences in these 2 SSDs when it comes to actual game performance?
 
GordoSan said:
No, the word stream (wasn't even spelled correctly) slipped in there. Yes, the RAM data should be instantly available from the SSD, in theory. However, I'm talking about if there's an advantage from a faster SSD to the whole of the graphics pipeline of data being processed at any given time, and the difference between their methods of efficiency vs bottlenecks within that pipeline. What are the real-world differences in these 2 SSDs when it comes to actual game performance?
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I'd say very little.
 
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GordoSan said:
I've felt like this is probably the reality, but I feel as though there are people living in a different reality altogether.
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To be fair, Sony wouldn't have done tge R&D and incured the extra cost for nothing.

But in my mind, a system can only do so much at any given time. So, while the performance differences may not be huge, perhaps creative freedom is.
 
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menace-uk- said:
Is it uncompressed?
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Microsoft hasn't publicly talked much about their decompression yet. It was mentioned in the original DF reveal that CPU resources usually used for decompression are freed up as a result of the SSD. They've been elusive in regards to how BCPack works.
 
menace-uk- said:
To be fair, Sony wouldn't have done tge R&D and incured the extra cost for nothing.

But in my mind, a system can only do so much at any given time. So, while the performance differences may not be huge, perhaps creative freedom is.
Click to expand...

I agree. It's not for nothing. But they were also doing it blind to Microsoft's solution. Microsoft does have a completely different decompression solution which may have different needs. I just now remembered some conversation on the Beyond 3D forums. Like they're able to work with smaller assets for the same scenes somehow. Again, no official word from Microsoft. Just leaked stuff. We'll see soon.

Actually I lied. It doesn't go into detail but here it is at a high level.

  • Hardware Decompression – Hardware decompression is a dedicated hardware component introduced with Xbox Series X to allow games to consume as little space as possible on the SSD while eliminating all CPU overhead typically associated with run-time decompression. It reduces the software overhead of decompression when operating at full SSD performance from more than three CPU cores to zero – thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better gameplay and improved framerates. Hardware decompression is one of the components of the Xbox Velocity Architecture.
  • DirectStorage – DirectStorage is an all-new I/O system designed specifically for gaming to unleash the full performance of the SSD and hardware decompression. It is one of the components that comprise the Xbox Velocity Architecture. Modern games perform asset streaming in the background to continuously load the next parts of the world while you play, and DirectStorage can reduce the CPU overhead for these I/O operations from multiple cores to taking just a small fraction of a single core; thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better physics or more NPCs in a scene. This newest member of the DirectX family is being introduced with Xbox Series X and we plan to bring it to Windows as well.
  • Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance.
 
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OneBadMutha said:
Microsoft hasn't publicly talked much about their decompression yet. It was mentioned in the original DF reveal that CPU resources usually used for decompression are freed up as a result of the SSD. They've been elusive in regards to how BCPack works.
Click to expand...

But going by your other post it sounds like it is still compressed. Which makes alot of sense.
 
OneBadMutha said:
I agree. It's not for nothing. But they were also doing it blind to Microsoft's solution. Microsoft does have a completely different decompression solution which may have different needs. I just now remembered some conversation on the Beyond 3D forums. Like they're able to work with smaller assets for the same scenes somehow. Again, no official word from Microsoft. Just leaked stuff. We'll see soon.

Actually I lied. It doesn't go into detail but here it is at a high level.

  • Hardware Decompression – Hardware decompression is a dedicated hardware component introduced with Xbox Series X to allow games to consume as little space as possible on the SSD while eliminating all CPU overhead typically associated with run-time decompression. It reduces the software overhead of decompression when operating at full SSD performance from more than three CPU cores to zero – thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better gameplay and improved framerates. Hardware decompression is one of the components of the Xbox Velocity Architecture.
  • DirectStorage – DirectStorage is an all-new I/O system designed specifically for gaming to unleash the full performance of the SSD and hardware decompression. It is one of the components that comprise the Xbox Velocity Architecture. Modern games perform asset streaming in the background to continuously load the next parts of the world while you play, and DirectStorage can reduce the CPU overhead for these I/O operations from multiple cores to taking just a small fraction of a single core; thereby freeing considerable CPU power for the game to spend on areas like better physics or more NPCs in a scene. This newest member of the DirectX family is being introduced with Xbox Series X and we plan to bring it to Windows as well.
  • Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS) – A component of the Xbox Velocity Architecture, SFS is a feature of the Xbox Series X hardware that allows games to load into memory, with fine granularity, only the portions of textures that the GPU needs for a scene, as it needs it. This enables far better memory utilization for textures, which is important given that every 4K texture consumes 8MB of memory. Because it avoids the wastage of loading into memory the portions of textures that are never needed, it is an effective 2x or 3x (or higher) multiplier on both amount of physical memory and SSD performance.
Click to expand...
They did say they would go deeper wit this, but still not seen it.
 
Nervusbreakdown said:
No matter how great the SSD can do, The rest of the hardware is still fixed, no matter what.

9.0-10 tf is not going to transform into 12tf because of the SDD. it will just perform just really, really, good on that spec only.

MS running 12 tf with their amazing SDD drive and it will run really, really, good with that Spec.

I think people will be disappointed if they think that the PS5 is going to outperform the Xbox series x.
Click to expand...
Not to be pedantic, but the official stats of the XSX is 12.155 TF.
 
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Lockhart having the same CPU, I/O, and feature set should mean everything that can be done in terms of game design on Series X should be possible on Lockhart minus resolution and ray tracing. A legit pushback to that assumption....that DF seemed to hint that if you didn't take advantage of the hardware based ray tracing, you could use those GPU CUs for physics or ML. Trying to find out if this limits those options or if those things were always 100% CPU.
 
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Nervusbreakdown said:
No matter how great the SSD can do, The rest of the hardware is still fixed, no matter what.

9.0-10 tf is not going to transform into 12tf because of the SDD. it will just perform just really, really, good on that spec only.

MS running 12 tf with their amazing SDD drive and it will run really, really, good with that Spec.

I think people will be disappointed if they think that the PS5 is going to outperform the Xbox series x.
Click to expand...
Thankfully we don't have a 9-10TF console coming.
 
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Here's some notes from the Xbox Series DF reveal and why you can't draw a 1:1 comparison of I/O capabilities without more info on both machines.

  • Xbox SSD I/O - 2.4 is guaranteed. Consistent performance is a must because fluctuation causes SSDs to fade as they heat up.
  • SSD is just one part of the system - "Asset streaming inherent in games can be radically improved perhaps explaining the tremendous level of variety and detail seen in the Hellblade 2 teaser"
    • Uses storage to augment memory. Game package install sits on storage and can act like extended memory.
    • Dedicated hardware blocks within the Series X SOC offload decompression work from the CPU and can deliver 6GB per second of data
      • I/O protocols are over 30 years old and have a ton of overhead. Prior to Microsoft offering a new solution, decompression overhead would've sucked up an entire 5 Zen 2 CPU cores. Direct X storage reduces this all down to 1/10th of 1 CPU core.
    • Microsoft built in hardware into Xbox One X to closely monitor how texture data is used in game titles - Found only a small portion of the texture is actually used on screen. Only 1/3rd to 1/2 of the allocated memory. Enhanced texture streaming that attempts to target the data that is actually needed is built into Direct storage and is described as a multiplier in terms of how memory is used
So my laymen's summary of asset streaming:
  • I/O speed is consistent (not just a best case number)
  • Memory need is greatly reduced...or another way of looking at it is that Series X acts like a PC with a lot more memory
  • CPU overhead is greatly reduced
  • Amount of data needed for the same quality of scene is greatly reduced

Conclusion: Since devs are not yet allowed to go into detail regarding Microsoft's streaming solution, I wouldn't make delta assumptions based on their excitement for the PS5 SSD.
 
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OneBadMutha said:
Here's some notes from the Xbox Series DF reveal and why you can't draw a 1:1 comparison of I/O capabilities without more info on both machines.

  • Xbox SSD I/O - 2.4 is guaranteed. Consistent performance is a must because fluctuation causes SSDs to fade as they heat up.
  • SSD is just one part of the system - "Asset streaming inherent in games can be radically improved perhaps explaining the tremendous level of variety and detail seen in the Hellblade 2 teaser"
    • Uses storage to augment memory. Game package install sits on storage and can act like extended memory.
    • Dedicated hardware blocks within the Series X SOC offload decompression work from the CPU and can deliver 6GB per second of data
      • I/O protocols are over 30 years old and have a ton of overhead. Prior to Microsoft offering a new solution, decompression overhead would've sucked up an entire 5 Zen 2 CPU cores. Direct X storage reduces this all down to 1/10th of 1 CPU core.
    • Microsoft built in hardware into Xbox One X to closely monitor how texture data is used in game titles - Found only a small portion of the texture is actually used on screen. Only 1/3rd to 1/2 of the allocated memory. Enhanced texture streaming that attempts to target the data that is actually needed is built into Direct storage and is described as a multiplier in terms of how memory is used
So my laymen's summary of asset streaming:
  • I/O speed is consistent (not just a best case number)
  • Memory need is greatly reduced...or another way of looking at it is that Series X acts like a PC with a lot more memory
  • CPU overhead is greatly reduced
  • Amount of data needed for the same quality of scene is greatly reduced

Conclusion: Since devs are not yet allowed to go into detail regarding Microsoft's streaming solution, I wouldn't make delta assumptions based on their excitement for the PS5 SSD.
Click to expand...
The texture data usage sounds a bit iffy. It says it attempts to, which implies inconsistent to me. That in turn makes your second and fourth bulletpoints kind of void.
 
Nervusbreakdown said:
No matter how great the SSD can do, The rest of the hardware is still fixed, no matter what.

9.0-10 tf is not going to transform into 12tf because of the SDD. it will just perform just really, really, good on that spec only.

MS running 12 tf with their amazing SDD drive and it will run really, really, good with that Spec.

I think people will be disappointed if they think that the PS5 is going to outperform the Xbox series x.
Click to expand...
👍
 
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