Looks pretty good, although this part form wiki is a turn off. Might be a very micro-managey kind of RPG.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
- Thread starter Mua'dib
- Start date
Characters seem a bit generic.
Nice early 2018 release too. I will likely pick it up.
PS4 gameplay. They seem pretty enthusiastic about it. Character models look a little rough. Lots of authentic details, though.
Hands-on preview.
http://onlysp.com/kingdom-come-deliverance-preview-a-medieval-challenge/
He talks about some negatives -- somewhat clunky combat, a bit of a cartoonish feel to the visuals, and cheesy dialog. Some of this will be improved before release, of course.
He discusses how challenging the combat is. "Players must combine strategy, skill, and equipment to overcome their adversaries. Fighting multiple opponents is no walk in the park."
He also discusses the permanence of the choices you make: "Rather than using indicators on a map, Warhorse Studios will use the quest journal and dialogue to point players in the right direction. Moreover, whatever decisions players make during their journeys will be permanent. Saving before a pivotal decision will not be an option, so gamers must live with the choices they make."
http://onlysp.com/kingdom-come-deliverance-preview-a-medieval-challenge/
He talks about some negatives -- somewhat clunky combat, a bit of a cartoonish feel to the visuals, and cheesy dialog. Some of this will be improved before release, of course.
He discusses how challenging the combat is. "Players must combine strategy, skill, and equipment to overcome their adversaries. Fighting multiple opponents is no walk in the park."
He also discusses the permanence of the choices you make: "Rather than using indicators on a map, Warhorse Studios will use the quest journal and dialogue to point players in the right direction. Moreover, whatever decisions players make during their journeys will be permanent. Saving before a pivotal decision will not be an option, so gamers must live with the choices they make."
Clunky combat could be an issue for me. I like my combat games and if it feels slow and clunky (because of poor design) that would put be off in a big way. Cheesy dialogue and cartoonish graphics I can handle
Looks an interesting game overall. Might not be best for players who enjoy a more faster paced game, although the options are sure to attract some RPG die hards.
What's wrong with the character models? They look fantastic, objectively. You mean the dead-face animation? Yeah, they are pretty deep in the Valley. It's a shame too, as it so easily breaks immersion. I really wish devs realized how crucial it is. Especially when you are providing such a realistic aesthetic. It's nice to see it looking so good on a "base" console! Only means good things for the Pro and 1X.
It was just an impression. I wasn't sure until I looked back. Part of it was the physical animations, like during the fisticuffs segment, which looked about as dynamic as combat in Morrowind did (I'm exaggerating a little).
But that's not really character models. As far as that goes, yeah, it was the facial animations, like you said.
Do you know how much neural real-estate in the brain is devoted to recognizing faces and decoding facial expression? It's a lot. It's like if you think of how sensitive the fingertips are to touch -- the brain is hypersensitive to human facial expression. It's pretty amazing how we can just instinctively decode minor movements of one of the hundreds of facial muscles and know what they mean, what the emotional significance is. The brain is really good at this, and we don't have to be taught most of it. It's just hardwired.
So facial animation is incredibly important -- because our brains are so attuned to it and so sensitive to micro-movements. It's also very hard to animate well, because of how many muscle groups there are, how much meaning is imparted by micro-movements, and because of how incredibly attuned our brains are to it (so it is very easy to feel "that doesn't look right").
All of which is to say, I should go easy on them. It's really hard to do right, and I am being picky.
I'm more interested/concerned about the gameplay. I know it's realistic, but is it fun? Is it immersive and imaginative?
I'll have to watch that walkthrough, when I have time.
I'm more interested/concerned about the gameplay. I know it's realistic, but is it fun? Is it immersive and imaginative?
I'll have to watch that walkthrough, when I have time.
I think they are going for as realistic a combat system as they can get away with in a game. I thought the fisticuffs stuff looked real good for a realistic first-person fight between unskilled individuals. Did you get to the Sword fighting part? Looks awesome to me. Like a more grounded variant of the fighting in For Honor.
Good faces are hard to animate, for sure. There are only a handful of games that nail it. I'm not convinced it's necessarily the micro muscle movements as the culprit, but having the right movements at the right time that not only blend to the next, but preemptively animate as well. You have to avoid neutral expressions at all costs unless the moment specifically calls for it. It boggles me that there aren't more games with a sort of emotional state modifier that is always on which blends with the general phonemes and expressions. A big disconnect comes when someone says something, then goes back to neutral face before the next line.
Sure. I am very impressed with what they have achieved already. You should watch this series, I've been really enjoying it so far. It looks like a true cause/effect sandbox.
Anyway, I think there are six parts.
I love how little hand-holding there is.
In part 4 he is going to scout a bandit camp, kills two guards and puts on one of their clothes as a disguise and sabotage the camp!! Doesn't work out well for him though, lol. Probably have to be more careful.
Edit: It seems he still had his old shield equipped. Dang- dat attention to detail
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Are there any short clips showing the combat? I don't really have the time to watch 30 min videos.
Here is the combat tutorial (april '17)
And here is a large battle (2 year old build)
Obviously not done, lol, but I like the realistic tack on combat! Hopefully they will implement gameplay that works with formations and teamwork (would affect tactics. Right now it's kinda like a large one-on-one style fight). They also need to ad some yelling/screaming during the fights- would add a lot.
Good point. The timing has to be right, and it has to flow with the voice acting. Developers understandably have a lot of trouble with that. There are many times where the face doesn't reflect the voice, or the face only reflects the voice after a delay, or the expression doesn't match the voice, or the expression stays too long, or there's a flat affect when there ought to be something else. Then also, there are multiple variations on emotion, and mixed emotion -- it's not as if people have just one feeling at a time, or they display feelings in one way. And then, all of this stuff is shifting, moment to moment, and you've got to keep up. Very tricky.
I'm pretty good at suspending disbelief and just going with it, though.
You just have to understand that sometimes it's beyond a certain developers ability. It's okay with me as long as they try. It doesn't mean it doesn't intrude on my immersion, but It's an understandable offense. It really is an art. It's even harder to do in a situation where you have an open world with tons of dialogue. The Witcher 3 is still the best example, imo, but even it has bad moments. Man, that game does so many things right....
I'd say it is beyond every developer's ability. That's okay. Asking for true realism there is just asking too much. I take what I get, generally, and I'm grateful that it's so much better than what we got 10 - 15 years ago.
Speaking of the importance of facial animations...
"Mass Effect: Andromeda launched back in March to fierce criticism of its facial animations. Four months later, BioWare is still issuing patches to fix them."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ching-mass-effect-andromeda-facial-animations
Not too much of a stretch to say that the stink over poor facial animations contributed to the death (hiatus, anyway) of a successful, beloved series.
"Mass Effect: Andromeda launched back in March to fierce criticism of its facial animations. Four months later, BioWare is still issuing patches to fix them."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ching-mass-effect-andromeda-facial-animations
Not too much of a stretch to say that the stink over poor facial animations contributed to the death (hiatus, anyway) of a successful, beloved series.
I disagree. It doesn't have to pass as indistinguishable from life, just believable. There are a number of games that pull it off.
The assassin's creed games, Uncharted, Ratchet and Clank (though there is, obviously, a lot more leeway with cartoons), the Witcher 3
, Ryse, Gears, God of War, Quantum Break, etc. Most of those are not open world, though.
I disagree. It doesn't have to pass as indistinguishable from life, just believable. There are a number of games that pull it off.
The assassin's creed games, Uncharted, Ratchet and Clank (though there is, obviously, a lot more leeway with cartoons), the Witcher 3
Most of those are not open world, though.
Well, we're talking about two different standards. You're talking about "Is it good enough for me to believe" and I'm talking about "Does it look like a real person having a real conversation with another real person?"
As for believability, I would just point out that it isn't just an objective quality of a game. Naturally, better animations help, but "believability" depends on the player's immersion and engagement in the game generally, which influence his/her disposition to believe (or suspend disbelief). It also depends on expectations.
Re. the first issue (immersion/engagement), if I'm really "into" a game, it takes a lot to pull me out. I can easily overlook facial animation issues (and a host of other things that are not realistic), and I just go with it. I'm "bought in," and it's hard to pull me out.
Conversely, if I'm not immersed and engaged in a game -- if I'm detached somehow, or in an analytical mode -- then it is easy for something to pull me out. I notice and respond to "fakeness" much more readily.
Re. expectations and standards, I think these get more stringent as time moves on. Mass Effect Andromeda's animations would've been praised as tremendously realistic, had they been in a game that came out 20 years ago. What it takes to be "believable" changes from era to era. People found all kinds of stuff believable 20 years ago that are awful by today's standards.
So "believable" isn't an objective quality. It depends not only on the animation itself, but on player immersion, engagement, and expectations.
New Game-play!
It's kinda taking me by surprise how much I am interested in the characters already. Not sure how they pulled it off, but I was actually disappointed that he didn't ask the father why he left Kuttenburg. It's so slow, but I am finding it immensely intriguing. The main thing I want to see improved is the animation during dialogue. It's weird that all the life goes out of them and they stand there with hands at their sides. The cut-scenes are great though!
It's kinda taking me by surprise how much I am interested in the characters already. Not sure how they pulled it off, but I was actually disappointed that he didn't ask the father why he left Kuttenburg. It's so slow, but I am finding it immensely intriguing. The main thing I want to see improved is the animation during dialogue. It's weird that all the life goes out of them and they stand there with hands at their sides. The cut-scenes are great though!
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Gameplay walkthrough from Gamescom:
A little hype for this game:
"What was most impressive to me is that, once the quest is triggered, if you don’t go along to it, it will resolve by itself. The already irate military commander, annoyed to be taking a rookie such as you along for the ride in the first place, will be extremely angry that you ignored orders and rode off to a side-quest on the other side of the map for a couple of days. He and his men are not incompetent, and thus, if you don’t show up they will eventually sort out the mystery for themselves.
"There are two other key triumphs. First is in linked mechanics, with complex combat supported by a big combo system plus skills, gear, and perks, all of which also influence social interaction.
"The second is in looks. Kingdom Come has one of the prettiest maps I have ever seen in a videogame, to the point of it not only being worth mentioning, but celebrating. Renaissance-era art slowly reveals itself as you explore, with intricate drawings in a tapestry style indicating towns and other areas.
"It isn’t finished yet, but getting it right will put Kingdom Come: Deliverance in a unique spot. The Witcher and Skyrim have taken fantasy RPGs into the stratosphere - but nobody has kept their storytelling and narrative options when transferring over to a world of cavalry charges and unenchanted swords. That is effectively a whole new genre and, by the looks of it, it could be a great one."
https://www.pcgamesn.com/kingdom-come-deliverance/kingdom-come-deliverance-skyrim-rpg-map-art
"What was most impressive to me is that, once the quest is triggered, if you don’t go along to it, it will resolve by itself. The already irate military commander, annoyed to be taking a rookie such as you along for the ride in the first place, will be extremely angry that you ignored orders and rode off to a side-quest on the other side of the map for a couple of days. He and his men are not incompetent, and thus, if you don’t show up they will eventually sort out the mystery for themselves.
"There are two other key triumphs. First is in linked mechanics, with complex combat supported by a big combo system plus skills, gear, and perks, all of which also influence social interaction.
"The second is in looks. Kingdom Come has one of the prettiest maps I have ever seen in a videogame, to the point of it not only being worth mentioning, but celebrating. Renaissance-era art slowly reveals itself as you explore, with intricate drawings in a tapestry style indicating towns and other areas.
"It isn’t finished yet, but getting it right will put Kingdom Come: Deliverance in a unique spot. The Witcher and Skyrim have taken fantasy RPGs into the stratosphere - but nobody has kept their storytelling and narrative options when transferring over to a world of cavalry charges and unenchanted swords. That is effectively a whole new genre and, by the looks of it, it could be a great one."
https://www.pcgamesn.com/kingdom-come-deliverance/kingdom-come-deliverance-skyrim-rpg-map-art
Good overview of the gameplay:
Love the historical accuracy. It's a fascinating period, and I love that they modeled all the buildings, etc., accurately. I'm not sold on the gameplay yet. My gut feeling is that it is too sim-oriented to be fun for me. But I'm looking forward to reading reviews and impressions.
Love the historical accuracy. It's a fascinating period, and I love that they modeled all the buildings, etc., accurately. I'm not sold on the gameplay yet. My gut feeling is that it is too sim-oriented to be fun for me. But I'm looking forward to reading reviews and impressions.