General console meh talk.

[JinCA]

Well do you really think Guerilla would release a statement to pro owners saying "ah yeah, well we tried to hit 60fps, but we didn't have the horsepower." Guerilla is owned by sony, they'll tell you what you want to hear. The truth is HZD could probably hit 60fps at 720p on pro, most anyone would agree with it, thats a ton of resources left over. 1080p however, is not, and thats exactly what scorpio could pull off and what you will see it doing in some cases.

They push the hardware and were able to make one of the best looking games ever regardless of being on console or PC and you are saying they lie because they talked about it being targeted for 30 fps? Of course it was and all console games are made that way, they figure out what they want from a presentation standpoint and also what framerate they want, Richard from DF even said this, hell even back when Gears of War was being made for the 360 one of the VP's at epic said it was meant to be a 30 fps game and that if they had been able to make it 60 fps they would have just pushed the graphics more and kept it at 30. It's funny that you are willing to believe MS hype over scorpio but challenge what a dev who works for a studio that does some of the best work when it comes to graphics says.

 

[de3d1]

They push the hardware and were able to make one of the best looking games ever regardless of being on console or PC and you are saying they lie because they talked about it being targeted for 30 fps? Of course it was and all console games are made that way, they figure out what they want from a presentation standpoint and also what framerate they want, Richard from DF even said this, hell even back when Gears of War was being made for the 360 one of the VP's at epic said it was meant to be a 30 fps game and that if they had been able to make it 60 fps they would have just pushed the graphics more and kept it at 30. It's funny that you are willing to believe MS hype over scorpio but challenge what a dev who works for a studio that does some of the best work when it comes to graphics says.

I just think they went for 30fps, which happens often in console games, but when dropping down to 1080p they could do anything else with the performance mode, simply not enough to work with. I'm betting if the framerate was unlocked, it spike into the 40s often, just not enough resources to get it up to par.

 

[de3d1]

The CPU in the X1 is actually faster than the one in the PS4, only slightly but it is running at a higher clock. There are also games that run slightly better on the X1 than the PS4, it all depends on the developer and also what the bottleneck is in the engine. The GPU in the PS4 has a decent advantage over the one in the X1 (basically the same percentage scorpio has over Pro) but that mainly seems to be used for resolution upgrades, it also has much faster memory than what's in the X1, yes the X1 has that small pool of DRAM but the GDDR5 in the PS4 is 2.5 times faster than the DDR3 in the X1 (PS4 176GBs vs X1 68GBs) The RAM in scorpio is faster than the RAM in the Pro (by 100GBs) but it needs to be if they are going to be targeting native 4K, the higher amount of RAM is probably the bigger deal IMO.

It depends on the engine too, the majority of games could brute force performance using the gpu in ps4 I read. Most games use engines that rely heavier on the gpu these days.

 

[JinCA]

It depends on the engine too, the majority of games could brute force performance using the gpu in ps4 I read. Most games use engines that rely heavier on the gpu these days.

True they do but the CPU's in the Pro and Scorpio aren't going to be strong enough to handle pushing games to 60 fps for things like open world games, especially the GTA/RDR type where you have a lot more physics and AI going on. Horizon at 60fps at a low resolution and lower amounts of everything on screen could have happened but it wouldn't have been the same game. So thinking a game that looks like Horizon could run at 60 fps on Scorpio is setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[de3d1]

True they do but the CPU's in the Pro and Scorpio aren't going to be strong enough to handle pushing games to 60 fps for things like open world games, especially the GTA/RDR type where you have a lot more physics and AI going on. Horizon at 60fps at a low resolution and lower amounts of everything on screen could have happened but it wouldn't have been the same game. So thinking a game that looks like Horizon could run at 60 fps on Scorpio is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Its all about resolution.

At lower resolutions, scorpio advantages will combine to push some of those games to 60fps. If Pro can pull off HZD at 1800p(I think) at a rock solid 30fps, no doubt in my mind could be done at 60fps/1080p on Scorpio. The advantages would just pile on. Like I said earlier if it's running at 30fps at 1800p on pro with almost zero drops, you know the fps unlocked at 1080p is creeping into the 40s, easy. That's a 60fps game on Scorpio. A massive wealth of resources left over.

 

[kb]

Its all about resolution.

At lower resolutions, scorpio advantages will combine to push some of those games to 60fps. If Pro can pull off HZD at 1800p(I think) at a rock solid 30fps, no doubt in my mind could be done at 60fps/1080p on Scorpio. The advantages would just pile on. Like I said earlier if it's running at 30fps at 1800p on pro with almost zero drops, you know the fps unlocked at 1080p is creeping into the 40s, easy. That's a 60fps game on Scorpio. A massive wealth of resources left over.

a game the PS4 pro runs at 40FPS will most likely run on scorpio at 60FPS with the exact same bells at whistles. Thats pushing frames out 50% faster which is roughly the difference between the two. Thats assuming the devs on the pro didn't use stuff like FP16 extensively (2x the speed on the pro) [but its unlikely a entire game would be made in FP16].

 

[de3d1]

a game the PS4 pro runs at 40FPS will most likely run on scorpio at 60FPS with the exact same bells at whistles. Thats pushing frames out 50% faster which is roughly the difference between the two. Thats assuming the devs on the pro didn't use stuff like FP16 extensively (2x the speed on the pro) [but its unlikely a entire game would be made in FP16].

That's also assuming it doesn't run higher than 40fps already and also assuming the devs don't take advantage of any scorpio's hardware custom capabilities.

 

[Frozpot]

Always annoys me when I read Gears Halo Forza. Yes, those are their BIG franchises, but there has been Quantum Break, Ori and the Blind Forest, Sunset Overdrive, Dead Rising 3 and 4, Ryse, ReCore, Rare Replay, Killer Instinct, etc.

Just because they don't turn em into franchises doesn't mean there is nothing there. Could more of them be bigger budget? Sure, but I've had a great time with all of them. Hell, QB was probably the closest in style to a PS4 game than any of them.

I certainly have enjoyed the MS exclusives more than PlayStation ones even if Sony's offerings have visually impressed me more.

I do want to see the Xbox games get a bump in production values, but not at the expense of the great gameplay. I find it interesting how often 60fps is touted yet it's these beloved, beautiful Sony games that get the praise (at 30), while Halo, Forza, and Gears (MP) are the games at 60fps. KI runs at frikkin 90!

 

[kb]

That's also assuming it doesn't run higher than 40fps already and also assuming the devs don't take advantage of any scorpio's hardware custom capabilities.

The GPU from everything we have seen is just polaris, no vega features like the PS4 Pro, what custom features are you talking about?.

 

[de3d1]

The GPU from everything we have seen is just polaris, no vega features like the PS4 Pro, what custom features are you talking about?.

Did you watch the DF reveal or any of the news about the design? The Vega features you speak on pro won't benefit it like fanboys hope. MS knew about it months ago, and if it was that good, it'd be in Scorpio as well.

 

[kb]

Did you watch the DF reveal or any of the news about the design? The Vega features you speak on pro won't benefit it like fanboys hope. MS knew about it months ago, and if it was that good, it'd be in Scorpio as well.

Expect theres 0 indication of any specific ALU enchaining vega features, nor anything outside of polaris that will actually make a big difference to ALU difference. It seems that microsoft went with a large polaris GPU and did minor if any ALU modifications to it. Once again if they had significant performance boosts from features they added they would be talking about them, the fact that they aren't is a indication they didn't.

The vega features on the pro literally double the amount of TFLOPs for FP16 operations, its helpful but only in a few areas that can handle FP16 precision vs FP32 precision but within those areas that you can use it you can literally do 2x as many operations.

According to Goossen, some performance optimisations from the upcoming AMD Vega architecture factor into the Scorpio Engine's design, but other features that made it into PS4 Pro - for example, double-rate FP16 processing - do not. However, customisation was extensive elsewhere. Microsoft's GPU command processor implementation of DX12 has provided big wins for Xbox One developers, and it's set for expansion in Scorpio.

Seems like microsoft left out double rate FP16 to make bc with the XB1 easier or maybe the die size increase wasnt worth it.

 

[de3d1]

Expect theres 0 indication of any specific ALU enchaining vega features, nor anything outside of polaris that will actually make a big difference to ALU difference. It seems that microsoft went with a large polaris GPU and did minor if any ALU modifications to it. Once again if they had significant performance boosts from features they added they would be talking about them, the fact that they aren't is a indication they didn't.

The vega features on the pro literally double the amount of TFLOPs for FP16 operations, its helpful but only in a few areas that can handle FP16 precision vs FP32 precision but within those areas that you can use it you can literally do 2x as many operations.



Seems like microsoft left out double rate FP16 to make bc with the XB1 easier.

There's zero indication based on tech specs just announced. Did you read over the cpu configuration?

Cerny would have shown clear examples of the tech advantages by now, which it isn't new to begin with at all. It was a simple marketing plow to undermine Scorpio's advantage.

 

[kb]

There's zero indication based on tech specs just announced. Did you read over the cpu configuration?

Cerny would have shown clear examples of the tech advantages by now, which it isn't new to begin with at all. It was a simple marketing plow to undermine Scorpio's advantage.

The CPU details presented in the article just mention speeding up the performance of virtualised memory addressing because they are running in a VM environment. Here ill quote it for you.

The tech is quite easy to demonstrate, FP16 is literally twice as fast, anything that is FP16 is twice as fast theres nothing really to demonstrate, this is a feature that will be in all vega GPUs once they are released.

Outside of that they added hardware customisations to help along checkerboard rendering which they have already shown off.

"Typically for CPU, the top two items are frequency and memory latency. If the CPU has data, the faster it can process it, the quicker the result, but it also means that if it doesn't have the data, it sits there idle, so latency is a big component. On frequency, we pushed it up to 2.3GHz" explains Nick Baker "On the latency, a couple of the areas we tackled, one was all the queues coming back from the memory interface, we sped those up as well. Specifically, within the core, because we're running a virtualised OS environment, we wanted to optimise how memory translation operations happen so there are some key changes inside the core to speed those things up. The end result is that not only does the CPU run faster, it also runs more efficiently meaning more power for you at the end."

Its likely to be faster but no where near fast enough to consider it a non jaguar CPU. They are trying to avoid the association because its a bad word for some reason. Theres 0 mention of ALU performance increases for the CPU.

 

[Larry]

I hope the Scorpio is like the Sega CD where I'll be able to mount the X1 on top of it. Or if it plugs into the side of the console and works like the 32X playing games off of micro SD cards would be cool.

 

[TeKPhaN]

I hope the Scorpio is like the Sega CD where I'll be able to mount the X1 on top of it. Or if it plugs into the side of the console and works like the 32X playing games off of micro SD cards would be cool.

That be great.

 

[Plainview]

I hope the Scorpio is like the Sega CD where I'll be able to mount the X1 on top of it. Or if it plugs into the side of the console and works like the 32X playing games off of micro SD cards would be cool.

I'm glad you went with the og version of the Sega CD in your hopes. Og>>>>>>>>>>>>side saddle

 

[de3d1]

The CPU details presented in the article just mention speeding up the performance of virtualised memory addressing because they are running in a VM environment. Here ill quote it for you.

The tech is quite easy to demonstrate, FP16 is literally twice as fast, anything that is FP16 is twice as fast theres nothing really to demonstrate, this is a feature that will be in all vega GPUs once they are released.

Outside of that they added hardware customisations to help along checkerboard rendering which they have already shown off.



Its likely to be faster but no where near fast enough to consider it a non jaguar CPU. They are trying to avoid the association because its a bad word for some reason. Theres 0 mention of ALU performance increases for the CPU.

I was referring to cpu minimizing workload that DF talked about. The only example I saw of FP16 is BF1 and a claimed 30% I believe, which wasn't tangible in real world performance. If DICE or Guerilla aren't using it and getting real world results, no one will. There won't be a single 3rd party game all generation on pro that outperforms Scorpio in any technical area.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

I was referring to cpu minimizing workload that DF talked about. The only example I saw of FP16 is BF1 and a claimed 30% I believe, which wasn't tangible in real world performance. If DICE or Guerilla aren't using it and getting real world results, no one will. There won't be a single 3rd party game all generation on pro that outperforms Scorpio in any technical area.

This is pretty much a given.

 

[kb]

I was referring to cpu minimizing workload that DF talked about. The only example I saw of FP16 is BF1 and a claimed 30% I believe, which wasn't tangible in real world performance. If DICE or Guerilla aren't using it and getting real world results, no one will. There won't be a single 3rd party game all generation on pro that outperforms Scorpio in any technical area.

there was another company that used it, and it allowed there game which ran at 1080P on the PS4 to run at 4K on the Pro, this is obviously not going to be the usual case but it can happen. The reason that DICe and Guerrilla aren't using it yet is probably because they need time, Guerrilla extensively used FP16 last gen with the PS3 because it was so fast on the SPU's as well. This is something you just need to give time to happen. Its also something that can be extensively used in stuff like hair rendering (at least according to AMD themselves who saw performance double using it).

There is also no doubt in my scorpio will be faster unless someone does some weird s*** like make a entire FP16 game.

 

[de3d1]

there was another company that used it, and it allowed there game which ran at 1080P on the PS4 to run at 4K on the Pro, this is obviously not going to be the usual case but it can happen. The reason that DICe and Guerrilla aren't using it yet is probably because they need time, Guerrilla extensively used FP16 last gen with the PS3 because it was so fast on the SPU's as well. This is something you just need to give time to happen. Its also something that can be extensively used in stuff like hair rendering (at least according to AMD themselves who saw performance double using it).

There is also no doubt in my scorpio will be faster unless someone does some weird s*** like make a entire FP16 game.

DICE used it for BF1 already. What game are you referring to that at 4k on pro? There are only a handful now and they're all graphically limited, linear or last gen visuals.

 

[kb]

DICE used it for BF1 already. What game are you referring to that at 4k on pro? There are only a handful now and they're all graphically limited, linear or last gen visuals.

DICE used it for a very limited subset of the game (checkerboard pass only). The reason for this is because not a lot of GPUs (because vega isn't out so only the Switch and PS4 Pro actually benefit from double rate FP16) actually run FP16 faster. But if you want a list of 4k PS4 pro games here you go.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-every-native-4k-ps4-pro-game-tested

 

[Intellivision]

DICE used it for a very limited subset of the game (checkerboard pass only). The reason for this is because not a lot of GPUs (because vega isn't out so only the Switch and PS4 Pro actually benefit from double rate FP16) actually run FP16 faster. But if you want a list of 4k PS4 pro games here you go.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-every-native-4k-ps4-pro-game-tested

For a system Sony is touting as "4k", the number of native 4k games are too may to count. LOL

For those that like to have the data broken down for them, based on our testing, we count ten pure, native 4K 60fps titles available right now for PlayStation 4 Pro:

• FIFA 17 (some 30fps camera modes)
• Hustle Kings (HDR support)
• Mantis Burn Racing (HDR support)
• NBA 2K17 (some 30fps camera modes)
• Neon Chrome
• Pro Evolution Soccer 17 (some 30fps camera modes)
• Rez Infinite (Area X may be sub-4K)
• Thumper
• Viking Squad
• Wheels of Aurelia

We recognise that 60fps isn't a prime requisite for gaming, and there are a bunch of native 4K titles out there running at 30fps too. We've still got a couple to test here (Parappa the Rapper's demo is 4K30, for example, but we'll wait for the final game) but right now the list is as follows:

• Assassin's Creed: the Ezio Collection
• The Last of Us Remastered (1800p60 mode also included)
• The Witness (1080p60 and 1440p60 modes also included)
• Skyrim
• The Elder Scrolls Online

 

[kb]

For a system Sony is touting as "4k", the number of native 4k games is too may to count. LOL

Theres a bunch that are missing considering the list is around 4 months old now. Some of the games are very impressive at 4k on a console thats only 2x as powerful as the PS4 though.

 

[Intellivision]

Theres a bunch that are missing considering the list is around 4 months old now. Some of the games are very impressive at 4k on a console thats only 2x as powerful as the PS4 though.

The article was written less than 3 months ago.

The native 4k games are a few sports, a few last gen remakes and a slew of indie games.

Similar to last gen. 360/PS3 maxed out at 1080p, but hardly any full budget games ran at that.... maybe a handful. The most 1080p games came from XBLA, PSN and XBLIG.

Don't get tricked into Sony's "4k" PRing. PS4 Pro barely runs any games at native 4k.

 

[kb]

The article was written less than 3 months ago.

The native 4k games are a few sports, a few last gen remakes and a slew of indie games.

Similar to last gen. 360/PS3 maxed out at 1080p, but hardly any full budget games ran at that.... maybe a handful. The most 1080p games came from XBLA, PSN and XBLIG.

Don't get tricked into Sony's "4k" PRing. PS4 Pro barely runs any games at native 4k.

Thats more likely because developers havent bothered patching then anything, theres a huge number of games that feature a resolution much higher then 1080P for the PS4 and I remember how much I was told the difference between 900 and 1080P is nearly indistinguishable and with those diminishing returns people kept talking about it be even smaller between 1800P and 2160P.

 

[Intellivision]

Thats more likely because developers havent bothered patching then anything, theres a huge number of games that feature a resolution much higher then 1080P for the PS4 and I remember how much I was told the difference between 900 and 1080P is nearly indistinguishable and with those diminishing returns people kept talking about it be even smaller between 1800P and 2160P.

Yeah, and I remember being told the difference between 900p and 1080p was huge, and that it was all about native 1080p. No amount of fancy techniques, upscaling or dynamic res can match a native resolution. It was all about res. Frame rate, AF and such takes a back seat to "native 1080p".

Now Scorpio should have an easier time with native 4k games (moreso than PS4 Pro), and suddenly native resolutions like 4k don't seem to matter anymore according to Sony gamers.

Same thing about media last gen. It was all about BR over DVD. BR with 50 gig discs and HD movies, vs. 360's 7-8 gig 10 year old DVD tech and 480p movie playing.

Sony stays put at BR and MS goes up a notch to UHD, which help with UHD movies and helping games max out a disc at up to 100 gigs before downloading extra content (if they choose this disc). And suddenly a better media option isn't important anymore.

Don't get me wrong kb. I know you fight the pro-Sony front as long as possible on TXB and Union, but let's face it. Sony fans flip flop a lot to fit their agenda.

Although we won't see a PS5 for years, just watch. And bookmark this thread. When Sony announces PS5 has better specs than Scorpio with better features, speed and resolution, I bet you any money it'll be another resolution arms race by Sony gamers if PS5 does better res than Scorpio.

 

[kb]

Yeah, and I remember being told the difference between 900p and 1080p was huge, and that it was all about native 1080p. No amount of fancy techniques, upscaling or dynamic res can match a native resolution. It was all about res. Frame rate, AF and such takes a back seat to "native 1080p".

Now Scorpio should have an easier time with native 4k games (moreso than PS4 Pro), and suddenly native resolutions like 4k don't seem to matter anymore according to Sony gamers.

Less so they dont matter and more so that diminishing returns is an actual thing, unless you have a giant screen or sit very close 4k can be hard to spot, the difference is still there obviously, its just not going to be as night and day as it is at lower resolutions. Also need to remember games that are 900P on XB1 are going to have trouble running 4k on Scorpio without additional optimisation, you'd need ~8 teraflop machine for that.

 

[yankeessuck]

Yeah, and I remember being told the difference between 900p and 1080p was huge, and that it was all about native 1080p. No amount of fancy techniques, upscaling or dynamic res can match a native resolution. It was all about res. Frame rate, AF and such takes a back seat to "native 1080p".

Now Scorpio should have an easier time with native 4k games (moreso than PS4 Pro), and suddenly native resolutions like 4k don't seem to matter anymore according to Sony gamers.

Same thing about media last gen. It was all about BR over DVD. BR with 50 gig discs and HD movies, vs. 360's 7-8 gig 10 year old DVD tech and 480p movie playing.

Sony stays put at BR and MS goes up a notch to UHD, which help with UHD movies and helping games max out a disc at up to 100 gigs before downloading extra content (if they choose this disc). And suddenly a better media option isn't important anymore.

Don't get me wrong kb. I know you fight the pro-Sony front as long as possible on TXB and Union, but let's face it. Sony fans flip flop a lot to fit their agenda.

Although we won't see a PS5 for years, just watch. And bookmark this thread. When Sony announces PS5 has better specs than Scorpio with better features, speed and resolution, I bet you any money it'll be another resolution arms race by Sony gamers if PS5 does better res than Scorpio.

 

[TeKPhaN]

There are only a handful now and they're all graphically limited, linear or last gen visuals.

If you think this... Scorpio will disappoint you

 

[de3d1]

DICE used it for a very limited subset of the game (checkerboard pass only). The reason for this is because not a lot of GPUs (because vega isn't out so only the Switch and PS4 Pro actually benefit from double rate FP16) actually run FP16 faster. But if you want a list of 4k PS4 pro games here you go.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-every-native-4k-ps4-pro-game-tested

Thats about what I figured