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OneBadMutha said:
In general, I'm hearing some really cool things about ML. Not just super resolution but there may be a surprise regarding backwards compatability soon. Kind of been hoping and somewhat expecting ML to have a big impact on older games. In the end, tools will be the story all gen. Microsoft's ML efficiencies will enable great possibilities with tools.

The problem with running ML real time and why we didn't see it applied much in gaming beyond some light implementation in BC on the One X is that it can be computationally heavy. Hardware accelerated ML just means you can run real time models and still have a lot left over. If you bought the Series X for hardware capabilities, you'll get what you paid for. DF freeze frame comparisons would've never justified the power delta regardless.
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BY ML, you meant machine learning right? I did some homework to find out what is ML. Basically (at least as an idea) is not as fancy as skynet or what people think. As an example, the software (say netflix) categorizes movies base on various tags (horror, 90s, award-winning, etc) & when you watch movies, it plots your viewing history made a custom selection that best represents your preferences. Of course, it can be more than that, but that's the basic principle.

My curiosity is how does ML do in the context of improving gaming, say resolution....Anyone has any links how it might work?
 
The Wolf King said:
Doesn't the GT series still sell millions?
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Probably, but it wasn't the top dog it was back in the heydays. Imagine NOT a true sequel for an entire console generation. People who care about racing have moved on.
 
starseeker said:
BY ML, you meant machine learning right? I did some homework to find out what is ML. Basically (at least as an idea) is not as fancy as skynet or what people think. As an example, the software (say netflix) categorizes movies base on various tags (horror, 90s, award-winning, etc) & when you watch movies, it plots your viewing history made a custom selection that best represents your preferences. Of course, it can be more than that, but that's the basic principle.

My curiosity is how does ML do in the context of improving gaming, say resolution....Anyone has any links how it might work?
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www.pcworld.com

How machine learning can make prettier PC games that adapt to your play preferences

Microsoft's new WinML and DirectML tools can supercharge games with smarter, adaptable AI, prettier images, and reduced development times.
www.pcworld.com www.pcworld.com
 
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starseeker said:
Probably, but it wasn't the top dog it was back in the heydays. Imagine NOT a true sequel for an entire console generation. People who care about racing have moved on.
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Not even remotely true. Even GT Sport with its cut down content and online competition ethos outsells everything else. ACC, PC, AC, Forza are not in the same league. So, where did tgey move on to ?
 
OneBadMutha said:
Nah it's one man's opinion. Most Xbox gamers bough Series X at launch for it's 1st party promise of the future, how well it carried over everything from the previous gen and Game Pass. Nothing changed for me/them. Nobody was talking about PS5's difference at 120fps before DF's comparison because 1) very few people were running games at that frame rate and 2) most gamers couldn't tell you which game was running better in multiplats without DF's help. Long time gamers know that 3rd parties rarely leverage hardware deltas. They rarely did it on OG Xbox vs PS2 and that was a massive difference in power.

I find the article either disingenuous or in a minority. It's not reflecting opinions from the Xbox enthusiasts. We already pre-ordered knowing that Halo was delayed and it would be 3rd party games at launch. The power didn't change for people who value that stuff. They'll win their fair share of DF head to heads that most gamers won't care about soon enough.
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Actually, I'm hearing this from a number of different users. I first noticed it when users first got their hands on Sony's system, and the further in it gets, the more of same complaints.

Ultimately, it’s the games that matter and Microsoft’s launch lineup has relied heavily on third-party games that aren’t backing up its performance claims. The Xbox Series X has been great at backward compatibility, accessibility, and accessory support, but Microsoft still needs to deliver more games from its Xbox Game Studios to really show the power of the console.

www.theverge.com

Why is the PS5 outperforming the ‘world’s most powerful console’?

The PS5 is punching well above its weight
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

But like you said, this doesn't mean no else isn't content with their purchase for the long term, but its obvious that those that aren't are voicing it. So i think, based on these stories, what these individuals thought they would get is not living up to their expectations.
 
Shawn Jelsic said:
Actually, I'm hearing this from a number of different users. I first noticed it when users first got their hands on Sony's system, and the further in it gets, the more of same complaints.

Ultimately, it’s the games that matter and Microsoft’s launch lineup has relied heavily on third-party games that aren’t backing up its performance claims. The Xbox Series X has been great at backward compatibility, accessibility, and accessory support, but Microsoft still needs to deliver more games from its Xbox Game Studios to really show the power of the console.

www.theverge.com

Why is the PS5 outperforming the ‘world’s most powerful console’?

The PS5 is punching well above its weight
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

But like you said, this doesn't mean no else isn't content with their purchase for the long term, but its obvious that those that aren't are voicing it. So i think, based on these stories, what these individuals thought they would get is not living up to their expectations.
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I stop reading after "the verge"...
 
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OneBadMutha said:
BL3 is one of those rare games that's a port up. Xbox One X got assets from Xbox One which is why One Xs assets are lower than PS Pros. Series X is working with those assets. Outside of the assets, it runs really well. Great frame rate and nice bump in physics.

No developers are complaining about Series X memory. They have complained about bugs in SFS which is what is creating I/O bottlenecks and overworking the CPU. Microsoft is hoping to have a fix for that with an update coming out soon. Borderlands 3 does not look to be impacted by that.
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BL3 is a minor example.
We have more extreme ones.
 
Microsoft has acquired Super Smash Brothers esports site smash.gg



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Sooooo Sony's console is superior again after two weeks of being out? Is that what's being said?
 
These 4 hardware advantages PS5 has over Series X:

1. Unified Memory
2. Cache scrubbers
3. Unified CPU cache helping latency
4. Geometry Engine more advanced than using Mesh shaders

I'm not surprised it's outperforming XSX.
 
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TeKPhaN said:
These 4 hardware advantages PS5 has over Series X:

1. Unified Memory
2. Cache scrubbers
3. Unified CPU cache helping latency
4. Geometry Engine more advanced than using Mesh shaders

I'm not surprised it's outperforming XSX.
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Neither console is leveraging it's bespoke features at this point. Using each systems buzzwords to describe similar processes of features that developers aren't fully leveraging on either system doesn't accomplish much. Sony's brute force I/O due to it's SSD makes it much more straightforward than SFS which is the primary hardware advantage it has right now. Add to that a much more established dev environment which carries over smoothly from the previous gen, devs are having an easier time. Just don't waste too much time on this.
 
Dtwice said:
Sooooo Sony's console is superior again after two weeks of being out? Is that what's being said?
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The PS5 right now has the advantage in most of the new multiplatforms. It remains to be seen if the trend will continue in the future.
 
starseeker said:
BY ML, you meant machine learning right? I did some homework to find out what is ML. Basically (at least as an idea) is not as fancy as skynet or what people think. As an example, the software (say netflix) categorizes movies base on various tags (horror, 90s, award-winning, etc) & when you watch movies, it plots your viewing history made a custom selection that best represents your preferences. Of course, it can be more than that, but that's the basic principle.

My curiosity is how does ML do in the context of improving gaming, say resolution....Anyone has any links how it might work?
Click to expand...
Super-resolution is only one way ML is being applied. In simplest terms, think of using huge amounts of data for prediction and automation. Basically think of things you're doing over and over again. ML can help automate. In gaming, think of ML transforming code by predicting what the code should next. Depending on the model you're using, it can take a lot of resources to process. There are both real time solutions and then solutions that can be built into dev tools to help game development become more efficient. Microsoft will use it in multiple ways. Super-resolution is something that already exists on the PC side so that's why people are focused on it.

That said, it's not perfect. Upscaling using prediction is in a way allowing the program to make educated guesses on what the image should look like at a high resolution based on what it looks like at a low one. It's not going to equal native quality. The goal is to keep training the models with more data and get close enough that it doesn't matter. If the average eye can't tell the difference, then devs can save resources on native resolution and apply to other things.

ML can also be used for other things like making dev tools more efficient, improve game AI, and even animations.
 
Dirt 5 devs commented that there's a bug causing issues with the textures during high frame rate mode. Thought that was public. Again...arguing about software coming in hot doesn't say much about the big picture capabilities of the hardware. Seems like whatever narrative is being built from this is a waste of energy. Really temporary.
 
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OneBadMutha said:
Dirt 5 devs commented that there's a bug causing issues with the textures during high frame rate mode. Thought that was public. Again...arguing about software coming in hot doesn't say much about the big picture capabilities of the hardware. Seems like whatever narrative is being built from this is a waste of energy. Really temporary.
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What are your thoughts on which console will be the primary point for multiplatform developers going forward?

I am thinking the PS5 because like you said it's easier to develop for and seems to be the environment that developers are more familiar with. Then after they would port it over to the XS consoles? Anyone can answer with their thoughts, this is an open question to all.
 
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DriedMangoes said:
What are your thoughts on which console will be the primary point for multiplatform developers going forward?

I am thinking the PS5 because like you said it's easier to develop for and seems to be the environment that developers are more familiar with. Then after they would port it over to the XS consoles? Anyone can answer with their thoughts, this is an open question to all.
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I think this will be complicated. Most devs build on PC first. One dev told me that devs generally want to work in the environment where they can get their games up and running fastest. Faster they can get it running, faster they can get to things like testing, iterating, showing game, etc. I didn't dig in for more info on how it works with Xbox and Playstation however my belief, based on past info, is it depends on which APIs devs prefer.

If they lead with DX12U on PC, Xbox benefits. Devs haven't liked Direct X for awhile though. Until they do, I don't see Xbox getting that indirect lead platform advantage. Microsoft is investing a lot and maybe that changes this gen. Their selling point of the GDK is that if devs make a game for PC using DX12U their lead, it'll easily port to Xbox and be available in the cloud with no extra work. They are investing a lot more now than they did last gen. Will have to wait and see if that pays off. In the end, devs will have to make games for both platforms so which dev environment is prioritized will still probably depend on which gives them results fastest. Maybe some of that depends on these marketing deals too? Who knows? No insight on that.
 
OneBadMutha said:
You'll have to explain. I don't even know how to approach this one.
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PC games ARE NOT made with nvme drives at a minimum so starting with them will hold back these consoles.
menace-uk- said:
Look at the lighting. Vastly different.

I'm not saying they were. They just look like one was taken in midday sunshine and the other in cloudy evening.
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One has vastly better textures. Has nothing to do with the time of the day.
Dno69 said:
Do we really believe that the XSX can't render the car with the same level of geometry as the PS5?
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It's not though 🤷‍♂️

I did say at the beginning of this thread this would happen.
 
TeKPhaN said:
PC games ARE NOT made with nvme drives at a minimum so starting with them will hold back these consoles.

One has vastly better textures. Has nothing to do with the time of the day.

It's not though 🤷‍♂️

I did say at the beginning of this thread this would happen.
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That level of geometry though? We'll see if its fixed in an update.
 
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