***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VII ***SPOILERS***
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I'm with Kassen on this one. The first six movies clearly established two things. 1) Experience Jedi/Sith always have the advantage. The less experience, the more likely the veteran is to win. Anakin couldn't beat Dooku until he became more battle hardened and lost to Obi-Wan's strategy learned over the years. Luke could barely fight Vader in the first round, got some training from Yoda, and still struggled in the second fight. 2) You need training to learn how to tap into the force and use it effectively. The kind of things Rey was doing weren't too far off from Obi-Wan's abilities in Phantom Menace. Physical training would not be enough, especially since Rey presumably only has experience dealing with scavengers with nothing more than a staff by her side. She wouldn't even be experienced with a weapon like a lightsaber. It's like having a tough wanderer with no sword training fight a knight in medieval times.
Honestly, the only way they could redeem that part of the movie is if they explain that Rey is already an experienced padawan who was abandoned by her trainer, likely Luke, for one reason or another, be it survival training or him believing she'd be better off by herself. Perhaps amnesia was involved, but that wouldn't make sense since people would know she was trained. Luke would have had to train her in secret, with nobody knowing. Not even Leia.
Honestly, the only way they could redeem that part of the movie is if they explain that Rey is already an experienced padawan who was abandoned by her trainer, likely Luke, for one reason or another, be it survival training or him believing she'd be better off by herself. Perhaps amnesia was involved, but that wouldn't make sense since people would know she was trained. Luke would have had to train her in secret, with nobody knowing. Not even Leia.
Luke used the force to destroy the deathstar and already knew how to use force pull (In a weakened state) without training.
And I can't stress this enough that you guys are ignoring...this isn't George's Star Wars, nor do we know why Rey could use the force effectively (bearing in mind her flashbacks and hearing Obie, Luke and Yoda).
Did you guys want everything answered in the first movie?
Luke had gotten a small bit of training from Obi-Wan on how to use the force. In addition to using the force to speak with Luke from death. Rey having amnesia and being a jedi or padawan would be good enough of a explanation. Also, yes, I'm just getting tired of the "let's make things secret and cryptic for the next movie" approach to things personally. Perhaps if it was done better, I'd enjoy it, but I just came out of it annoyed and underwhelmed. The reveal of Luke pretty much sums it up for me. It's all just one slow lowering of the robe with some puffing up of the lips. Honestly, I thought the funnest part of the movie was listening to Harrison Ford talk in general and seeing Fin duel with a Stormtrooper's electric baton. The rest just seemed like forced mystery and Ren beating up computers. Like I said, I came out annoyed.
Some of you are hard to please. Seeing the original like a billion times, I can tell you they had hard to swallow scenes and chock filled with bad acting. And to add insult to injury, the prequels and attack of the clones cartoons made holes even bigger.
But we enjoy them, because we suspend belief. If something as little as questioning just how Rey could use the force without knowing her background is an issue, yet ignoring how Luke with extremely little training was using a light saber, using force to take down Death Star (I don't buy that he was trained by Obie in that couple of minutes scene on the falcon equates to any real training), force pulling, force choking, force jumping, mind controlling, etc....that just tells me people are looking for something to nitpick. The masses are enjoying the movie, because like they did back in 1977, they suspend belief, and watched it with the open mind of a child. Which is a good thing. I don't need to over analyze the events in a sci fi fairy tale movie to enjoy it.
But we enjoy them, because we suspend belief. If something as little as questioning just how Rey could use the force without knowing her background is an issue, yet ignoring how Luke with extremely little training was using a light saber, using force to take down Death Star (I don't buy that he was trained by Obie in that couple of minutes scene on the falcon equates to any real training), force pulling, force choking, force jumping, mind controlling, etc....that just tells me people are looking for something to nitpick. The masses are enjoying the movie, because like they did back in 1977, they suspend belief, and watched it with the open mind of a child. Which is a good thing. I don't need to over analyze the events in a sci fi fairy tale movie to enjoy it.
No seriously. You gave this big talk about how the older movies supposedly had huge plot holes. Were you just blowing hot air?
fun to watch. but no real story, just a remake of Episode IV. i suspended my belief for two hours but as mentioned here in the thread, the plot holes ! damn the plot holes just kept piling on
and f*** you Luke and Han for hiding while parts of the Resistance and other planets were being annihilated over the last 10 years
and f*** you Luke and Han for hiding while parts of the Resistance and other planets were being annihilated over the last 10 years
They did have plot holes, but you just made excuses for them. You think force awakens have plot holes, so I excused them away.
Rey using the force isn't a plot hole. You don't need to be trained to be able to use the force. You don't need to be a sith or a Jedi to use he force. You need to go to training to become a Jedi or sith, but if you're force sensitive, you could use it without being trained.
Think of mutants, how some mutants in marbel stories need training to use their powers, while others, comes to them immediately.
You want a plot hole? Calling Luke a Jedi, when he had no training. He was force sensitive, yet was called a Jedi knight. And in comes Lucas, years later, and starts changing shat, making if false that he was a Jedi knight. Or that leia was his love interest, and some odd years later, Lucas decided to switch it and make her his sister. Or that there was never an intent for Obie to know R2, and then years later, change that as well.
You call Rey's usage of the force a plot hole, simply because YOU don't like how she used it, but it's not a plot whole. Especially when you consider that JJ and Disney said they were doing their own thing. Again, stop looking at the force as something that you're mentally limiting. It's like humans trying to impose what they believe a God is. It had never...EVER been stated in SW canon that something that had the force needed intense training to be able to use it, hence why Luke used it pretty dam well without any real training. So much so, that even Vader, a Sith Lord, said he was impressive.
I've yet to see a plot hole, just some people bitter because they wanted things to play out differetly, which is fine. But calling an already impossible space story filled with impossibilities is a bit nonsensical. It's a made up story, and they can introduce emements as they please, which is no different than what Lucas did.
There is a huge difference between an excuse and a logical explanation. Sorry you think it's illogical that someone can become less evil over the course of a few decades to save their one and only son. :/
What the hell are you even talking about? I gave you several loose points for the Lucas movies.
As for this new movie, I gave you logical explanations, that you conveniently ignored. What's your biggest gripe? That Rey used the force as well as she did? Where in SW lore does it say a force sensitive person can't use the force without going through Jedi training? For crying out loud...Luke used the force pretty darn well without real in depth training. You're missing the point behind the force being awakened in her. Obie even reached out to her at that last moment, saying "Rey, these are your first steps". There's obviously something reallllllly special about her, for Obie to reach out to someone he didn't know. You miss the fact that Kylo tried getting into her mind, and she already knew from previous that she may may be linked to the force due to the vision she had. With Kylo getting into her head, she in turn was in his head.
There's nothing illogical about her "awakening", you just don't like the way it played out. Nothing, absolutely nothing in SW canon tells us that a force user cannot use the force without training. However, we do know through SW lore that force users come in different varieties, depending on their midichlorian count, their sensitivity to the force, etc. You don't know how sensitive Rey could be to the force, as all questions are not meant to be answered right now.
So many excuses have been given for Lucas's six movies, including cartoons, some of them pretty lame. But you're introduced to a force sensitive user that uses the force without training, and some people go bat shat insane.
What's the other lame arse complaint I hear coming from people? That Finn used the light saber against a storm trooper? Ummm, Finn as every bit trained to fight as the storm trooper he was fighting. He is a well trained soldier, as the movie has shown the troopers to be...unlike Lucas's storm troopers that couldn't shoot well.
There's nothing more illogical in this story over some illogical crap from the older stories. Again, you may not like how it played out, and that's fair...but to ding it for being illogical when the older movies had several illogical points, well, that's just illogical.
You want things that make no sense, how about Vader having interactions with Leia, yet not knowing she was his daughter, but immediately gets that Luke is his son, when no one tells him. Want more nosense? If Luke was supposed to be in hiding, why did he keep his name "Skywalker" (hint, original plans for story didn't have Vader as being his father, the same way as Leia was not meant to be his sister).
More nonsense that you haven't addressed, Luke went through just a few days training with Yoda, yet he's called a Jedi Knight, when we know that to become a Jedi Knight, you need to go through many years of rigorous training, and work your way up the ranks of this ancient religious order, nothing that Luke does.
More nosense, storm troopers that have pretty much contributed to keeping the galaxy in line, are beat by midget cavemen. Oh my...NOSENSE.
More? Why would the empire build another deathstar with the same design flaw?
Again, I could go on and on, but the point is, these are illogical movies. They are nothing more than space fantasy stories. Lasers, magic, pew pew, etc. Just like the originals, you NEED to suspend belief a bit to enjoy the movies. This new movie is no more illogical than the old ones.
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Exactly. The elements of this movie, and the old movies, are just one big wtf, spitting in the face of all that is possible. To claim that using the force is illogical without training (when no where in SW lore does it say you can't use force without training) while dismissing all the other illogical stuff is funny.
Just enjoy it, or don't....but don't point out faults while ignoring the many faults of the originals.
You didn't give reasons for why Vader couldn't be good. You just have reasons why he could be bad. "Vader murdered the Jedi academy" is a reason he could be bad. But it was twenty years ago. Not a very solid reason for why he cannot want to save the love child he had with dearest Padme.
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Didn't Lucus all but confirm Luke didn't fight back in order to prove Vader still had good in him.
You're stuck on the vader thing, but ignored the many other illogical crap I mentioned.
With that said, you really haven't addressed the comeback made for pointing out how Rey using the force really wasn't illogical.
Point being, which you've yet to address, you knock the film for what you consider to be plot holes, even though, there wasn't any plot hole. You've yet to point out what is illogical in the movie other than to criticize it based on your opinion on what should or should not be.
I watched the movie yesterday.
I'll give it a B-.
It's a serviceable sequel, nothing remarkable. It feels like fan service and almost like a homage to the films it is trying to proceed. It doesn't necessarily take the story anywhere interesting at all, but it does enough to be entertaining.
I'll give it a B-.
It's a serviceable sequel, nothing remarkable. It feels like fan service and almost like a homage to the films it is trying to proceed. It doesn't necessarily take the story anywhere interesting at all, but it does enough to be entertaining.
Watched the movie with my wife and kids tonight. Two things I really didn't like... Kylo Ren was really bad ass, his voice even scarier than Vadars. Then he throws a temper tantrum like a bitch and that took away from his badassness.
THEN he took his mask off.... and when I saw him I was like WTF!?!? The sith lord is a whiney little nerd!?!?
f*** that ...not cool.
THEN he took his mask off.... and when I saw him I was like WTF!?!? The sith lord is a whiney little nerd!?!?
f*** that ...not cool.
Yeah, he wasn't in control of himself....with that said, he's not a Sith Lord, nor was he even a sith.
Since you aren't liking how logical is it for Vader to save his own son, which plot hole do you want to hear about next:
Luke destroying the Death Star or Luke still besting Vader with little training in return of the Jedi?
Wasn't luke a stronger force user by the time he ran into Vader? Because if you will remember in A New Hope when Han's ship was captured, Vader sensed Obi Wan(a strong force user) and yet Luke was with them and invisible, like Leia.
How about you tell me what you consider a plot hole in the new movie???? And don't give me the crap about Rey using the force, when little kid anakin used the force with no training, nor knowing that he was attuned to the force. At least Rey was made aware through visions that she had the force.
No, he sensed Obie because he recognized his presence. Remember, in the same movie, Vader sensed the force in luke as well.
Right, because initial scripts didn't have luke as his son, nor leia as his sister. Lucas made stuff up long the way, hence why I'm baffled that people would call Rey using the force nonsense, when the other movies were chocked filled with nonsense.
So you didn't mean any of it when you said the original trilogy was ridden with plot holes. Why did you bring it up then? Were you just blowing hot air on that?
I only called them plot holes...because you called the new movie as having plot holes. Either neither has plot holes, or all do. I've provided a laundry list of nonsense from the originals. These movies are meant to be enjoyed from a child's perspective. You over think it.
